How to be a feminist father ...

[MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter]

My girl is at primary school. I think I probably have no idea of the sort of inbuilt "patriarchy" stuff I do that might adversely affect her but I do read this forum and go to a few lectures to try to keep my self awareness up. Out of the blue accusations of being patronising (usually from my wife) are the tell tale that I'm not what I should be to my daughter (or my wife, but she's very able at setting me straight whereas my daughter might defer to my authority).

I want her to be happy and ready to take on the world and all the idiots she will meet.

Are there any tips you might give, books (not too long please , I'm not a great reader) etc?

Perhaps you have a husband/partner that does stuff and you wish he didn't as it has some negative effect on your daughter. I'm not talking about clearly abusive behaviour as I am 100% sure that's not me. The more subtle stuff that most men won't be aware of. You experiences would help me.

Thanks in advance for guidance etc and sorry if I've turned up offering nothing but a begging bowl. At least other men might read this too and benefit?

If I wrote a post on a forum for black people that was discussing racism and asked how I could be less racist....and they gave me books that had been written that they found enlightening...would I then continue to harp on about how these books wern't written for white people especially? and demanding they make more of an effort to teach me to not to be racist?

If you want to be a male feminist the first thing you need to learn is that you take a back seat when discussing feminism and listen. In the rest of society people will listen to your voice over the woman next to you. You have been given lots of help here and many cookies for making the effort but to keep demanding when people say they are done giving makes you look entitled.

I think what the OP is asking for is 'dick lit'.

As in dick literature, kinda like chick lit is chick literature.

By feminism isn't for men, it's for women, I think scallops means that... Well, do you remember women's liberation? Feminism is about the liberating of women, the struggle to have women recognised as full human beings. Men can be allies and supporters in that struggle and may in some ways benefit from (and in other ways lose out) but feminism is not "for" men, men are not its focus, men are not the point, if you will.

I think this is the point - as a man, you really are used to having the whole world default to you. The whole world is male-centric. Feminism is a political movement that fights the "male-centricness" of the world that has oppressed women for so many centuries. But you now want to women to tailor feminism for men, so that men can get more motivated by it. It really does defy belief.

I recommended the Equality Illusion to you. It is an incredibly easy to read book - downloadable onto kindle for a couple of quid. It is not written "for women" - it is written for anyone who has an interest in the topic of equality for women. Which is what you claim to have - why not try reading it?

I think Sabrina is right, the recommendations are really quite accessible reading.

BTW, Wifework will never be called Partnerwork because if Wifework wasn't gendered, feminism would be ticking that one off and moving on.

I have a new idea! OP, why not be a feminist dad and then write about your own experiences and advice for men who follow you?

MarriedDad, these are the first two reviews of the Equality Illusion from Amazon. Tell me how this isn't applicable to men and fathers:

Review

'A dose of feminist commonsense.' --Guardian

'Banyard's focus on action is inspiring ... Read it. Share it. Give it to your mum, your daughter, your son, your brother, your sister, your dad. ' --Irish Times

(my emphasis)

Yes! Oh, thank goodness! If we'd only tailored feminism to appeal to men, then everything would be ok now.

Stupid feminists, making feminism about women and shit.

I get it, you want to understand, but sometimes that would be handy, if it also came with a Matrix-like learning module which by-passed all the old tropes.

Men won't like feminism more if we're nice to them, we tried for a few thousand years hoping that men might notice that women are real people if we made them sandwiches and looked after their children and kept their houses. Sadly, that boat sailed. Feminism isn't about choice, making nicer sammiches or anything other than female liberation from Patriarchy. Being an ally is a no brainer, unless you enjoy seeing women as lesser, and if you do, then, you're probably on the wrong part of the forum.

Harsh? Yes, probably. Apologies? None.

Yonic I read all the way through the thread to find that you had already made my observation, that the OP has spotted a gap in the market which he can develop into a work from home career.

OP - I'm not sure I'm a very good feminist, but DH and I found The politics of housework was quite good at exposing some of our built-in assumptions. It's an article, so quite quick to read.

I think kudos to you that you are open to the idea that you have a lot to re-learn. Good luck.

FuckoffFeret

Your post has rammed the point home and it finally got through my thick head. Thanks.

Just in case you might want another book along those/these lines .....

The Colour of Water is a fabulous book (real life story) involving racism, anti-semitism, feminism, poverty all bearing down on one family but met with awe inspiring courage and success (mostly if not all from the mother).

www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Water-Black-Tribute-Mother/dp/0747538328

I don't care whether you've been "transparent" or not Married. You are still expecting women to run around finding things out for you, explaining things to you. It's all very entitled.

Yonic explains nicely what I meant by Feminism is for women. How could it not be for women? My focus as a feminist is not to motivate and interest men, it is to make life better for women.

"How is that not targeted for you? In fact it is written for women ..."

Isn't that a contradiction illustrating my point?

Erm no, and if you had included the rest of the sentence it would explain why. The original intention of the book was to raise awareness amongst women but in fact, longer term it would probably be better read by men.

"I can see that "tailoring" feminism into a male-shaped consumer item is unpure,a shortcut, ironic and even offensive - but I think it would be more effective with a larger audience and will do a better job of accelerating the propagation of feminism more widely (at least until men get more enlighted and pick up Wifework unprompted .... perhaps by then it will be called Partnerwork?)"

Where to start?! Wtf is unpure? It has nothing to do with purity. Nor is it anything to do with being a shortcut . And it's not 'even offensive'. It is offensive. Petula hits the nail on the head "Men won't like feminism more if we're nice to them, we tried for a few thousand years hoping that men might notice that women are real people if we made them sandwiches and looked after their children and kept their houses."
And why would men not want to pick up a book called Wifework. Do they not care about the work their wives/partners do? I can't imagine the opposite being said. Women would be encouraged to see how hard men work. In fact that is what is done all the time anyway! There is a fair amount of misogyny in your assumption that men wouldn't be interested in a book detailing what women do.

And this is what I meant about you not being genuine. You aren't that interested in feminism above telling us how we should do feminism and how we should make it appeal to men. It isn't about you, it's about us. I know it's a hard concept to grasp in a world with men at it's centre an all, but go on, surely you can think about other people for a change?

Sabrinnnnnnnna

Thanks for the reviews, once again showing my shortcomings.

"It really does defy belief." .... really? I think my inept attitude is just the tip a large, not melting very fast, iceberg of men like me or considerably worse than me.

I think it defies belief because you specifically asked for help, got help and then criticised that help.

No one here was trying to recommend something for "all men" but were responding to you as an individual man with a specific request.

Hope you will read some of the books linked - and maybe write your own!

scallopsrgreat

"Do they not care about the work their wives/partners do?"

Aren't the men that don't care the biggest problem? Aren't they the ones least likely to post on this forum, or read a book about feminism? (there I go trying to pat myself on the back again .... soz).

I'm talking about engaging the groups that don't want to engage and will remain entrenched and pass that on to their sons and daughters whilst subordinating their wife.

I think what I'm learning here is that the job of engaging other men is mine. I like the suggestions here that men should make it their responsibility not just in their family, but amongst their peer group and more broadly.

Yonic

Sincere apologies. I truely appreciate the recommendations and for me, I will buy them, read them and hopefully be enlightened by them. I wasn't meaning to disrespect the help given.

I suppose I was raising a separate issue of how to engage other men that I couldn't believe would read those particular books. I'm not critiquing the books or the suggestions but "other men".

Ok, I believe you.

One thing I would advise on this forum is to look at your tone. A group of women tend to engage with each other in very different ways than a group of men. We will typically use "I wonder if" and "it seems to me" type language a fair amount. Men do so far less.

(NAMALT, NAWALT)

So a useful thing to be aware of in life is that both your wife and DD may speak like this, it doesn't mean that they are not that sure of their position and need a man to come and state some facts, it's socialised communication methods for both sides.

For example, the language around "falling woefully short" is a very strong criticism and prefacing it with "dare I say" simply draws attention to the fact that you know it's a strong criticism and you are going to say it anyway because you care more about making your point than about how the other side receives it.

I don't want to make this a pile drive on your posts but I hope it's helpful feedback.

Yonic

That's a very interesting observation. Whilst my memory will no doubt have bias and some cognitive dissonance going on, I am fairly confident that in our partnership I am the one who uses the "I wonder if" and "it seems to me" approach more often whereas my partner (oh god how do I refer to her without using the possessive "MY"?) will tend to use much more definitive, final language.

What worries me is how my daughter, despite having cogent arguments, will back down quickly and go into "passive" mode. Often this happens when my partner has lost her patience and temper with her, but it happens with me too (less often).

Are these things linked somehow?

I think I'm swerving into general parenting here, but this thread is very enlightening so I thought I'd toss it out there to see ..... (sorry asking for help again .... me, me, me .....)

..... the person who I am partner with .... instead of my partner?

TPWIAPW?

DP works and is shorter!

Doh! darling partner.

I like writing things all out. Is it weird to use "darling partner" in full here? It's a mumsnet thing isn't it (not a real world thing)?

"Aren't the men that don't care the biggest problem?". Yeah! And they are the least likely to engage no matter how much we flower it up, so why should we waste all that time and energy when there are things we can focus on that we can change. But you know best of course.

Anyway I'm done with engaging. Wasted too much of my time and energy on you. That last post of yours has a whiff of women blaming/partner blaming so I'm out of here. Go off, read, listen and stop telling us how we should be doing feminism as if we had never thought of the arguments you are putting across.

Op, use my partner if you like. No one writes out DP!

Anyway, have got some docs to review so am off now. Enjoy the reading, hope it helps.