How to be a feminist father ...

[MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter]

My girl is at primary school. I think I probably have no idea of the sort of inbuilt "patriarchy" stuff I do that might adversely affect her but I do read this forum and go to a few lectures to try to keep my self awareness up. Out of the blue accusations of being patronising (usually from my wife) are the tell tale that I'm not what I should be to my daughter (or my wife, but she's very able at setting me straight whereas my daughter might defer to my authority).

I want her to be happy and ready to take on the world and all the idiots she will meet.

Are there any tips you might give, books (not too long please , I'm not a great reader) etc?

Perhaps you have a husband/partner that does stuff and you wish he didn't as it has some negative effect on your daughter. I'm not talking about clearly abusive behaviour as I am 100% sure that's not me. The more subtle stuff that most men won't be aware of. You experiences would help me.

Thanks in advance for guidance etc and sorry if I've turned up offering nothing but a begging bowl. At least other men might read this too and benefit?

I looked at the books suggested here and they will certainly help my understanding of feminism and the wider topic.

I am wide open to be corrected as I clearly haven't had a chance to read these books yet, but have skimmed over the Amazon previews. They clearly seek to give an account and synthesis that is valuable to all, but they aren't "addressed to men" or "fathers". Clearly, there is nothing stopping me or other fathers from reading these books, but I'm not convinced that "fathers" at large will see these books on the shelves and think they are "for them to read". Marketing and targeting of audience is a powerful and important factor and I wonder if the "market" is delivering something that "fathers" will read (other than me as a result of your suggestions).

Given how important and influential the father role is and can be to equality and feminism in family life and, hopefully for generations to come and society at large, there does seem to be a gap for the "movement" to exploit.

Would you agree that the task of informing and educating "fathers" in this way is, dare I suggest, woefully short.

Is there a "How to be a feminist father for Dummies" book? Am I reducing the issue to absurdity to thinking there needs to be something like it?

Married, you have identified a really important gap. And men are much more likely to be receptive to education when it is in relation to their daughters rather than to women in general.

Er, no, OP, I think you've gone fairly far wrong with that approach. And risk coming across entitled and patronising.

To be a feminist father, you have to be a feminist (or feminist ally, if you have issues with men identifying as feminists). It is a pre-requisite. You can't be a feminist father without being interested in feminism. A 'feminist fathers' book would be an advanced text, not a 'skip all the other stuff' one.

Imagine it a bit like Christianity (or another religion). You will have introductory books. You will then have books about applying your beliefs to specific areas of your life. But you have to understand the building blocks. Feminism obviously isn't a religion, but it is the closest analogy I can think of.

So no, I don't think 'feminist fathering for dummies' is really a gap in the market.

I don't agree that a book for fathers on feminism would have to be an advanced text. Many men say their perspective on various aspects of life change after the birth of a baby. Old assumptions are challenged, new ways of looking at things discovered. It seems like a great opportunity to me.

Yes, absolutely. Having children is a great time for men to become interested in feminism.

It was the idea that you could have 'feminism for dads' as in 'all you need to know about feminism is how to apply it to your parenting' that I think doesn't work. I think that, to be a feminist father, you have to behave like a feminist. Which means you need to understand the basics of feminism. You can't be a feminist dad by following a few pointers in a book like "don't comment on appearance too often" (good though that pointer is). You have to understand the basics of why feminism is needed, what it means, what the everyday experiences of sexism are.

By all means a feminism for dummies with a chapter on dads. But I don't see you can think you can have a book that is just aimed at the bits of feminism you need for parenting. It isn't divisible like that.

Sorry to go back a page, but I'm concerned about the use of possessive pronouns.
Do they always indicate possession?
How then should we refer to the children to which we have given birth or fathered, without saying "my children".
Or refer to the person we have married without calling them "my wife/husband"?
Is this peculiar to the English language? I don't think so.
Are there any languages you can refer to the spouse or partner without using possessive language?

PenguinsIsSleepDeprived

"And risk coming across entitled and patronising."

Bingo! This reflects what can happen to me in real life, from time to time.

Can you spell out for me what was wrong with my last post (re books directed at fathers)? In particular, the "patronising" element of it? I have re-read it and just can't see it that way. . That is in no way trying to suggest it isn't, just that I can't see it that way. That's part of the problem.

BTW - I can see that men need to embrace the whole topic so a reduced version for fatherhood can easily fall short.

PenguinsIsSleepDeprived

I agree that it would serve me better to understand what the "everyday experiences of sexism are", but I can only read, hear and do my best to empathize. As a man I am never going to "experience" it, in the same way I will never experience homophobia, racism, antisemitism etc. To experience such prejudice is surely the driver and passion behind being a true feminist.

Is it possible for men to become feminists without that passion from experience?

How ridiculously privileged I am as a white man in good health with more than £1 in my pocket.

I am sure that you didn't mean to be patronising, which is why I said 'coming across' .

But you basically said "You know this big important thing which is a big part of how you see the world? Thank you for your careful book recommendations, but I don't think men will read about Issue unless it's a book about Issue for Men, not just Issue. [Bit patronising to men generally] And I personally would like a book which is a dummies guide to the one bit of Issue which I think is important, for men.

It's not that I don't rate the idea of accessible introductory texts. But you are saying that there needs to be an introductory text to one bit of the issue that interests you, directed at the one sub-group of the audience to which you happen to belong.

It's also the assumption that you can just learn about Feminist Fatherhood. Can you imagine wanting to learn about Socialist Fatherhood or Christian Fatherhood without first learning about Socialism, or Christianity. It implies you can learn the application without understanding the foundations.

That said, I think a book on applying feminist beliefs to various areas of life would be an interesting concept.

married Just because you're a white middle-class heterosexual male doesn't mean you'll never experience exclusion, bullying or people making negative judgements based on how they perceive you. Why do you feel your own life experiences of these things are less credible than anyone else's?

I think part of the problem is that you appear not to consider the vast amount of existing material on feminism worth your time. It's as if you are swatting away a huge library of books by and for feminists, going, "no, no, no, not that stuff, I need the stuff for men"

By the way I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt as making an effort, but "can you spell out for me...." is in itself a bit entitled.

The conversation so far, grossly simplified, reads a bit like this

A - recommend me some books on a subject I'm assuming you are experts in, and I'm not
B - yes, we are experts. Happy to help - try book x, y and z
A - no, not those books, there should be other, special books, for people like me
B - ahem. not sure about your tone.
A - well EXACTLY what is wrong with my tone? I need full details please, I want you to spend some time on this, talking about ME ME ME ME

At this point, person B might be justified in saying "ok chum. go and read the books x y and z and then come back for a detailed personal master class"

x-posts!

PenguinsIsSleepDeprived

I will take being patronising to other men on the chin - guilty as charged. But I'm going to make the same mistake again and ask .....

Do you believe men, in general, will read the books suggested?

vezzie

I confess that this thread is about me.

I don't want to give the impression that I have dismissed the suggestions made. I haven't had a chance to read them yet (or even buy them).

I did want to challenge how men, outside this thread, would be drawn into feminism because I think they need to be drawn in. They don't experience it so only the very enlightened would bother ..... (oh god that sounds awful).

I think I should stop posting and think a bit more .....

Thanks Buffy and others. Not feeling very grown up but I'll change.

Buffy do you think it's fair to acknowledge that people may only take an interest in something when prompted to do so by something? Many men might be interested in being a decent human being without feeling the need to start reading feminist texts. From my point of view - outwith Married's approach here, it's perfectly reasonable that a man might only come to feminism once the responsibility of being a father to a woman happens.

This is perhaps why there seem to be so men opposed to feminism on this forum and elsewhere; it's not that the majority of men aren't on board generally, it's just that perhaps some men only really engage with it when they see an article that offends them personally for some reason (leaving aside whether they're right to be offended!) and those are the guys that engage.

Thinking aloud somewhat!

I do think it's a bit of a 'reach' to suggest men don't engage with feminism because of a conscious acknowledgement that thy night have to give something up. This conveys a level of selfish complicity doesn't it?

Buffy

To me your Dad sounds exceptional (and inspirational).

Totally selfishly again (me, me, me) I would read a book about your relationship with him and his story.