How to be a feminist father ...

[MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter]

My girl is at primary school. I think I probably have no idea of the sort of inbuilt "patriarchy" stuff I do that might adversely affect her but I do read this forum and go to a few lectures to try to keep my self awareness up. Out of the blue accusations of being patronising (usually from my wife) are the tell tale that I'm not what I should be to my daughter (or my wife, but she's very able at setting me straight whereas my daughter might defer to my authority).

I want her to be happy and ready to take on the world and all the idiots she will meet.

Are there any tips you might give, books (not too long please , I'm not a great reader) etc?

Perhaps you have a husband/partner that does stuff and you wish he didn't as it has some negative effect on your daughter. I'm not talking about clearly abusive behaviour as I am 100% sure that's not me. The more subtle stuff that most men won't be aware of. You experiences would help me.

Thanks in advance for guidance etc and sorry if I've turned up offering nothing but a begging bowl. At least other men might read this too and benefit?

"It has a bit of a worrying subtext: that men only need bother about women's freedoms when they make a mini woman that they really, really care about."

This was the background for the might or might not be true Jay Z story:
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1210385

And an academic study re gender pay gap/birth of daughters to CEOs...

m.wsj.com/articles/BL-IMB-1908

Do you believe men, in general, will read the books suggested?

Rather than worrying too much about that, start with yourself. You've been given some good recommendations, and you're here, participating and thinking about the right thing to do.

Go with the knowledge and motivation you've got for the time being; refine your approach to parenting/partnership through experience, asking others, listening and self-reflection – rather than worrying too much for now about how other men are going to follow you on the righteous path

A lot of people are on Mumsnet for general parenting advice anyway, so if something crops up (e.g.. what do I do when my girls* put Timber on in the car during the school run? Challenge it every time, explaining the disgusting lyrics? Ban it? Suggest an alternative?) then ask about specifics.

And if you're feeling too privileged and want to simulate a little of what it might be like for some out-groups then identify and challenge sexism when you're with (only) male colleagues or friends. By doing so you'd achieve far more than giving them a copy of Feminism for Beginners ever would.

*I do use the phrase 'my girl/s'. Not often, but when they need the comfort and security of it I feel that the positive effects outweigh implied ownership etc, which I can address in other ways.

Sorry - also - can I echo something Yonic said in the very first response to your OP ... always use she/her in contexts where gender isn't clear or defined – not only reading stories with your kids, but in every other aspect of your life.

You'll be amazed by how many people get confused by it, when they wouldn't even notice the use of he/him.

felafal, the using "she" trick will be hard as the habit to default to "he" is baked in from birth. I'll try my best

Yep, it's socialised in from birth. Give it a go. I don't always remember myself but I guarantee using she even sometimes will still be different to most people your kids encounter.

Thanks Buffy - yes, a useful analogy

Married – it's actually fun to try it, and to substitute 'her' for 'his' etc when you can.

The first time I remember doing that was at the toddler stage, singing:

Three little monkeys
Jumping on the bed
One fell off and bumped her head...

Socialise your own kids that way, small steps. A joy of being a parent.

Dogs and cats are a good place to start with 'she'.

Particularly if it's one of those books where a cat is depicted as female by having lipstick on.

Or eyelashes. Had a ridiculous conversation with my 5 year old recently where she thought only females had eyelashes. Had to march her over to her dad .

Make sure your son never interrupts your daughter and never disrespects her. If she ever hits him you need to ask him to think about what he must have done for her to act that way.

Dagee, while I agree with your post in part about respect, I think a healthier dynamic would be to teach both siblings the value and importance in not interrupting. However, I disagree with the second part about hitting. That is teaching victim blaming; I would argue that it is unhealthy for either gender to learn that.

By the way, op, the fact that you are modelling staying at home while your wife Is the main breadwinner will have a positive impact itself.

My oh was brought up in that dynamic and, although his dad was not thoughtful or self-reflective as you are (in fact, was a hard-drinking Aussie who had a number of major character flaws), my oh has emerged naturally a feminist. For example, he didn't realise I was listening, but he heard some of his rugby mates belittling female sports commentators and he just pointed out the qualities of the ones he knew and identified their parity with male counterparts, without getting sucked in to rugby banter and without being defensive. He also supports me playing rugby and talks tactics and technique because it's a shared interest; he never patronises our playing strength. Likewise, whereas many men are intimidated by my PhD, he happily supports it and is proud, and comes to me for information on topics he knows are my areas of expertise.

So, in summary, your family dynamic will automatically have a positive impact on your dc. The fact that you are self aware and engaged will then serve to enhance this.

Dagee, you're way out of line. OP is obviously genuine and open to learning about feminism, so really that kind of aggression doesn't help things does it?

dagee = MRA and a previously banned user.

Such a fascination you have with mumsnet, eh, dagee? It must be like that itch you just have to keep scratching.

Delurking. I'm (or I try to be) a feminist grandfather. Started looking at MN fairly recently, DD now herself a mother told me about it.

As part of the delurk, I want to say thanks to all the posters here from whom I've learned much. As I say, I'm still trying; in many ways, some of which I recognise, I'm still a fairly stereotypical old man, with all that entails in our society. (Though I started trying to be feminist as a very young man, encouraged by my mother, somewhat ahead of her time in some ways -- but see below about re-fighting old battles.)

Any specific advice? One of the unalloyed delights of my old age is that I get to spend time looking after DGC, girls and boys, regularly on one-to-one basis. How best to do my bit with them wrt gender equality?

And finally, an old quote from a feminist man:
"... the principle which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes ... is wrong itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; ... it ought to be replaced by a principle of perfect equality, admitting no power or privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other."

-- Many of you will recognise it. John Stuart Mill. In 1869! Why is this battle still being fought? Why does every generation have to re-fight the same battles?

How old are they aronb?

If they are youngish, and you are in good health, I always think one of the joys of being a grandparent should be being able to take them on the little adventures that parents are often too busy, or exhausted, to contemplate. The tree climbing in the woods, the trip to the local climbing wall, or whatever you have locally, running races in the park. Girls are soo soo often told 'be careful'. They aren't told to run wild and take risks. You can help with that.

Also, listen to her. Make time to just sit and let her talk about her day and her thoughts. A coffee out somewhere, a cup of tea in the kitchen. Whatever. Make space and don't fill the silence. Someone who listens like that is a valuable thing for any child to have, a step removed from a parent.

Don't spend all your time telling the girls they look lovely. It's a knee jerk. I do it with my girls. But try biting your tongue and complimenting something else. Tell her she looks ready for adventures, or that she looks happy today, or that you've hear she did well in her last school project.

Oh, and just being there for things: school drop off, sports day, going to the odd school event. They send messages that these things aren't the land of women.

Buffy - that is impressive!

That is impressive Buffy - and the comments are really heartening.

aronb, you have such a huge part to play. My DGF simply treated me as a functioning human being, with as much value and worth as any other functioning human being. He did lots of Grandfatherly things like gardening, DIY, mechanics and the like and was an impressively intelligent and talented man, he simply included us in this regardless of sex. Let the GDC help you with whatever you're doing, don;t assume that because they're girls, they won't want to dig over the veggie patch or because they're boys, they won't want to have a stir of the cake, let them take the lead.

As Penguins said, taking time to listen, taking time to have 'discoveries' and 'adventures' is so valuable. Life is quite fraught, having someone you trust as an oasis of calm and time taken helps immeasurably.

I think that there is an expectation in your posts OP that we have a responsibility to educate you each is basically just upholding the patriarchy.

Women took their time to think carefully and post on here for your benefit and you basically threw it back at them and said it wasn't good enough. It wasn't tailored for you. Let's take my suggestion, for example. Wifework is about how men leave the bulk of the unpaid, repetitive work and organising the home down to the women they live with. How is that not targeted for you? In fact it is written for women but it would be much more appropriate for men to read it as they are the ones doing the neglecting.

It is such a sense of entitlement that women should be providing you with reading material. In fact, more than that, feminists should be directing their time and energy towards producing books that pander to men and their egos. Feminism isn't for men. It's for women.

I don't believe you are genuine, not after dismissing those texts out of hand and demanding more from us. You just want us running around appeasing you, making you feel welcome. That isn't any evidence of a man who wants to be a feminist ally. It's just the sign of a man.

To learn and engage with feminism you need to listen to women and their experiences not have them tailor their experiences and thoughts to become attractive to you.

scallopsrgreat

I'm going to get a defensive now. (woken up with a headcold feeling grumpy)

"Feminism isn't for men. It's for women."

Do you mean

1. men shouldn't participate in feminism;
2. feminism can't apply to men;
3. your quote was being humorous; or
4. something else?

"How is that not targeted for you? In fact it is written for women ..."

Isn't that a contradiction illustrating my point?

I agree that men should read these books and should adopt feminism. However, I am going to keep patronising men in general and say that they won't unless feminism appeals to them directly in a tailored way. For example female comedians in mainstream media can and do promote and highlight feminist issues in a way accessible to men. Even the most privileged and prejudiced of men might be watching/listening to Josie Long.

I can see that "tailoring" feminism into a male-shaped consumer item is unpure, a shortcut, ironic and even offensive - but I think it would be more effective with a larger audience and will do a better job of accelerating the propagation of feminism more widely (at least until men get more enlighted and pick up Wifework unprompted .... perhaps by then it will be called Partnerwork?)

"I don't believe you are genuine"

I think I've been very transparent. I have put myself forward as a man dissatisfied with his own behaviour seeking to self-improve. I have asked for help and received (with thanks). I have not dismissed recommendations out of hand. I will do my best to take on all the advice given.

However, I have an opinion on feminism's appeal to other men. Just because you don't like my view or the way which I express it doesn't make me not "genuine". Perhaps I shouldn't as "Feminism isn't for men. It's for women."

"To learn and engage with feminism you need to listen to women and their experiences not have them tailor their experiences and thoughts to become attractive to you."

Yes, I agree, but will less interested or motivated men?

I'm tempted to jump in a now .....