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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

How to be a feminist father ...

165 replies

MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 04/10/2014 16:30

My girl is at primary school. I think I probably have no idea of the sort of inbuilt "patriarchy" stuff I do that might adversely affect her but I do read this forum and go to a few lectures to try to keep my self awareness up. Out of the blue accusations of being patronising (usually from my wife) are the tell tale that I'm not what I should be to my daughter (or my wife, but she's very able at setting me straight whereas my daughter might defer to my authority).

I want her to be happy and ready to take on the world and all the idiots she will meet.

Are there any tips you might give, books (not too long please Wink, I'm not a great reader) etc?

Perhaps you have a husband/partner that does stuff and you wish he didn't as it has some negative effect on your daughter. I'm not talking about clearly abusive behaviour as I am 100% sure that's not me. The more subtle stuff that most men won't be aware of. You experiences would help me.

Thanks in advance for guidance etc and sorry if I've turned up offering nothing but a begging bowl. At least other men might read this too and benefit?

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 04/10/2014 20:41

Op, another one - just because it's possible to find a very few examples of what seems to be reverse sexism (such as the much cited Diet Coke ad), if you note it's the same few counterexamples cited over and over, that'll give you an idea of the scale of the problem.

Another one that sometimes comes up - Hermione being smart and Ron less so - but one of the twenty odd features on the DVD is "The Women Of Harry Potter"...

Coffeeinapapercup · 04/10/2014 20:42

"His" "my" and "our" all are used to indicate possession and ownership. A small amount of that in everyday use is inevitable.

But within the context of your sentence you used "his" as opposed to "our" thereby highlighting your husbands claim (for want of a better phrase) to your children and minimising your own.

The language in both the op (theres an awful lot of possessional language) and you're own post seem so casually patriarchally I wonder if you're both just totally used to talking that way.

PotsAndCambert · 04/10/2014 20:44

I don't know coffee I do refer to my children on MN just as a lot if other posters.
The OP might it might be aware of the MN style of talking about dd instead of my daughter.
It might it it might signal an issue.

But if it does sign towards a very patriarchal position, then this is the best your to show the OP what he could be doing better!!

And tbh, even if it's not for the OP, there are lots of other people that will benefit from it anyway (me included tbh. I sometimes find they no better anyway)

ApocalypseThen · 04/10/2014 20:50

If you wouldn't say it to your son, don't say it to your daughter. So no extra rules about how she should behave, dress, conduct her relationships. Expect her to live up to her intellectual potential - don't expect less of her than you would of your son.

Coffeeinapapercup · 04/10/2014 20:53

I also wonder about the level of casual control and fearfulness of the world outside your family.

Most of the world are not idiots and I'm not sure setting a daughter up with the expectation that they are is within the ideal of a feminist father.

Seriously muting the adverts? I want my dd to engage with all aspects of the world and trust that with my guidance she can work out the right path for her.

Coffeeinapapercup · 04/10/2014 21:05

I really wasn't aware of the amount of possessional language until I got divorced from my very patriarchal ex husband. I was "his" a lot. I noticed even in court there was a lot "his children" and "my children". I tended to refer to the children by name or "his children" when ir should have been my or own. it impacted on dd very much. I'm now very carefully when I use these

Keepithidden · 04/10/2014 21:28

Language is the most difficult aspect I find with the whole Feminism movement. Its so inbuilt and automatic that I struggle not to fall into patriarchal norms regularly. Yet it is so important as it is an unconscious method of asserting a level of control the shouldn't be there.

Treating DD and DS the same is pretty easy in comparison to moderating, and actually thinking about what I say, or rather how I say it. I do worry about that aspect of parenting a lot. You have my sympathy OP, it's not easy to change, but change we must.

PS - for those who don't know I'm man too.

Yama · 04/10/2014 21:52

Well, this is frustrating. I've honestly never met a more feminist thinking male than my dh. But because of the interpretation of my language, he's seen as a patriarchal beast.

If I really think about why I used the word 'his' rather than 'our', it's perhaps because I see him as an equal parent and so don't have to tag me onto his connection to the kids.

Coffeeinapapercup · 04/10/2014 22:13

I've no idea if he's a patriarchal beast. But he asked what more can be done I expressed an opinion about the language of the op.

And I totally agree with keepithidden. Patriarchal language is insidious. You can be the most forward looking feminist male or female but if you're language is still retrogressive you're just creating a disconnect between what you are saying and what your language is saying

Yama · 04/10/2014 22:20

I am not married to the op.

I agree with you about his use of language.

I disagree about mine.

Coffeeinapapercup · 04/10/2014 22:30

Whooo wait up. I misunderstood your post. I read it that you were the ops wife?!?!

Total facepalm moment!

Coffeeinapapercup · 04/10/2014 22:31

Sorry

cailindana · 04/10/2014 22:55

Think ahead to when your DD is 16.

It's summer and she's going on a night out with her friends. She comes down the stairs wearing and very short skirt, a boob tube and high heels.

What's your reaction? Do you say anything to her before she goes out?

Original poster
MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 05/10/2014 00:01

Thank you all so much for this thread. Book recommendations and some excellent pointers, even on the tone of my post which casually passed me by.

I must say that I think the task for me personally will be harder than I thought.

PS - a couple have asked. I'm the main carer, part time home worker and deal with most of the domestic stuff and extra-curricular. My wife is the clear professional and breadwinner. Son is 10, daughter is 8. Love them both to bits.

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 05/10/2014 00:15

I must say that I think the task for me personally will be harder than I thought.

Ah MarriedDad, when men (and boys) start seeing things through a female frame of reference, it opens their eyes enormously. Good for you for being open-minded enough, and caring enough about your daughter's (and son's, as this will have a positive impact on him) future to have your eyes opened and seek information.

FuckOffFerret · 05/10/2014 19:06

I liked your OP married, it showed promise Grin

My partner is actually quite good with the things he says, but does occasionally fail the "assumption that I was the one who going to make dinner/remind him of outing/do the kid's shopping" portion of being a feminist husband/dad. If you're the main homemaker, it's probably not something you need worry about. I think a big one (especially for a dad of both sexes) is the way you speak to your son. Don't imply that anything feminine is crap, don't say throw like a girl, don't be weird if he wants glitter or pink. Girls pick up on it very quickly that being a girl is "less than". Make sure you don't spend all your time complimenting your daughter on her looks, don't call her passive names. Flower/princess. Tell how clever she is/ how strong, how awesome.

FuckOffFerret · 05/10/2014 19:08
Grin
falafelburger · 06/10/2014 16:35

Married - something I've always tried to do (as a man) is 'live equality' as far as domestic stuff is concerned. That means there should be nothing gender-based about household chores / cooking / driving etc. Men doing certain things around the house should be routine, unremarkable and no more deserving of praise than when the woman does it. I've had, for example, my SIL praise routine stuff I've done simply because I'm a man - in front of my one of my DDs. Challenging that kind of thing is really tough, because it's praise and can look petty - but for me it's vital to do it there and then in as friendly but assertive a way as possible.

Living that way makes you (pl) a continual role model for both your DCs.

Panthingies · 06/10/2014 18:23

agree utterly with falafel - it's the very 'demonstration' of non-gendered roles and tasks that little ones will absorb, so I'm less concerned with uses of possessive pronouns etc. ( I call my dd "my girl" often fwiw). eg I like to bake, and her mother loathes the effort involved so dd does that with me, as well as other cooking efforts.
The role-modeling is essential isn't it? Role models are there as 'problem-solvers' so showing how problems can be met by both parents in a similar fashion is fairly crucial, imo and ime.
And yes to the 'praise' bit too. What we do as involved, loving dads isn't earth-shattering and the response I've given is "it's what one does, isn't it?" or some such, seems to be okay.
And of course gently commenting on sexist rubbish on tv/media stuff helps, I think, if it's done at a level that little ones can understand.

Trills · 06/10/2014 18:31

I think there's a lot of promise shown in your wanting to be a "feminist father".

I definitely agree that gender equality should be in your mind when you are interacting with your son as well as with your daughter.

PotsAndCambert · 06/10/2014 20:59

And I also agree it's a very hard thing to do. Especially at the start, you need to be sooo mindful of whatnot and how you say it!!

Gina111 · 06/10/2014 21:05

Absolutely agree with tethersend. Give your daughter feedback on all her achievements and efforts. Keep the focus off appearance. Do not make comments on other women's appearance including weight. A father is of great importance in the formation of a woman's opinion of herself and her worth. Give her a solid base to enable her to know what is important.

Panthingies · 06/10/2014 21:38

On that point, the role of dads is to set expectations of the males in her future lives, isn't it? Not to put up with crap treatment, and knowing that discrimination is really important.

Panthingies · 06/10/2014 21:40

future lives? Unless she is a reincarnationist. Hmm

vezzie · 06/10/2014 22:23

Be careful with notions of "strong women". your OP says your wife is "able at setting you straight". I sniff a sense that you think you have a "strong woman", that she "can take care of herself" etc. there are (at least) two flaws with this sort of tropey fetishisation of the "strong woman" in a relationship / a household:

  • she is likely not being nearly as assertive as she could be or should be, or you think she is, but by asserting herself at all, ever, and having this jokey reinforcement each time that she is "able to set you straight" you are making sure she doesn't do it too much. You're calling it out, perhaps making a joke of it, which is making it harder for her to do, and harder to be taken seriously when she does - while all the time pretending that you "love a strong woman". It's such an insidious dynamic
  • it actually reinforces a very conservative notion of women as work horses who are solid, resilient, don't need TLC, and are always on standby to work harder. Men who talk approvingly about "strong women" often have a tendency to be lazy and selfish, knowing someone will pick up the slack
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