Would really appreciate some help

[cailindana]

Even though this is a relationship problem, I posted here because I think I will get better advice.

Rather unexpectedly, I find myself unwilling to continue with my DH. We've been together for 12 years and married for 6. We have two children.

I was brought up in Ireland and I would say my childhood was steeped in misogyny. The subtle messages I was always given were that men were the Important People who must be kept happy at all times and women were sinful idiots who were there to be slaves to men.

I railed against those messages, but inevitably they seeped in to some extent. Also, I was sexually abused as a child and my parents didn't care - what did I expect? I was a girl, that's what happens to girls.

So, despite being intelligent and relatively confident (I did a lot of acting in my teens, including big stage roles and some film parts) I got to age 19 with little or no sense of my own self worth. I then met DH and fell madly in love.

He was absolutely right for me at the time. He listened to me talk about the abuse I suffered, he was stable and kind and nuturing. We had a few rocky patches but I very much believed in love and when I married him I was extremely happy.

Now, six years later, I feel that, while the relationship was good for me when I was totally lacking in self esteem, looking for someone to make a family with and desperate for someone to love, it now does not work any more.

I've tried to talk to DH and he is very keen to change but I think he can't.

Kind as DH is, I have always come second in our relationship. I accepted that, most of the time. I now see though that any time I tried to push forward and insist some priority went to me, he subtly pushed back, was outwardly supportive but practically uncooperative, and as a result I have curtailed my life in order to fit with our relationship, which has essentially revolved around giving him the life he wants.

That's not to say I haven't benefited from our relationship, far from it. We have had some very good times, we have two wonderful children, and we have a nice home in a great place.

I feel though that while he has benefited massively from our relationship, I have made many many sacrifices. The crunch point came for me when I asked him to make one small sacrifice for me and he said no. Outright would not inconvenience himself in any small way for me to pursue my dreams.

I cannot come back from it. Whereas all the pushing back down through the years has been subtle, this was blatant. While all the time saying he wanted me to have a career, he wanted me to progress, he would support me blah blah blah, when he had to have one ounce of inconvenience to make that happen he just said no. And it all became plain to me.

Once, our relationship worked. I was a broken woman looking for security and I was happy to trail around after him, being his cheerleader and supporting him.

Now I want a life of my own. I do not want to have an "also starring" role in his production. He has shown by his actions that he does not want to support that.

So I feel I have to move on. But I will not make this decision lightly and I need some help to talk it through. Your help would be much appreciated.

That definitely rings true for me Cailin - I spent my childhood 'getting out of the nice lady's way'. I am over 40 now, surely it's my time to be the nice lady?

I have been involved with Al Anon recently, and their messages of leaving people to face the consequences of their own actions without 'rescuing', and recognising what is someone else's issue really resonate. I don't think it's coincidental that 90% of members are women.

My DH is actually the kindest, most reflective and open to challenge of any partner I've ever had, though that's mostly setting the bar very low. Becoming a mother of girls has totally changed all perspectives for me though, I want them to see equal, loving and respectful relationships as the norm and the minimum acceptable. It's easier for me to see unfairness and fight it for them than for me.

Having a daughter was a big turning point for me too EE. I picked up a lot of negative messages from my martyrish mother and my useless father and I don't want my DD to pick similar things up from me and DH.

I forgot to say we had another talk last night. DH over the last couple of days has been "checking in" with me a lot, as in "do you mind if..." "is it ok if..." and, as I mentioned he has been doing a lot with the kids and a lot of cleaning.
He asked me how I was, so I said, truthfully, I feel great. And I do.
I asked how he was and he said he was ok in general, a bit scared and stressed.
He asked if I was ok with him doing cleaning in the evenings and if he should continue to check with me before going off to do something and leaving the children in my care.
I was a bit impatient with him at this point and I said I couldn't give a shit what he does in terms of cleaning and to be honest it feels like he's trying to win my approval through some sort of brownie points system so I'll feel obliged to stay as he's been so "good." Also I said I was not interested in negotiating and deciding what's acceptable and what's not and I'm not going to have big discussions about cleaning because frankly I couldn't be bothered. I've told him for the last 12 years what I need and want and he hasn't listened. I've made it clear that I'm done with all that and it's not on for him to come along now and say "right now I'm listening, can you say it all again?" I said it felt like he's asked me to set up hoops to jump through and then provide a detailed map to the hoops then to go along and place his feet through the hoops and once I've done all the work to get him through, he'll then say "I've jumped through the hoops, now you have to stay." I said, that just wasn't going to happen. It's up to him to do what he sees fit. I am not managing it, I'm not controlling it, I'm not approving it.
He understood.

At one point he said "I know I wouldn't have got to where I am now without your support," and to my surprise I burst into tears. I think I really needed to hear that.

He also said he realises that anything kind he did for me, he expected it to be acknowledged and praised and noted, whereas anything kind I did for him he just took for granted.

I pointed out that anything I've requested in our relationship - moving in, getting married, having children - he's automatically said 'no' then gone off and thought about it, then decided to go ahead with it and just sprung the decision on me, expecting me to accept it, which I did (and shouldn't have). There was no discussion or no build up, even, to the announcement that he'd decided just literally "I've decided..." and off we go.

He acknowledged that he has seen himself as the "leader" of the relationship, so anything I have asked for he has seen as a request that he has final say over, much like a boss. He sees how badly he has treated me in terms of not taking my feelings into account, not discussing things with me and foisting decisions on me without any consultation or even basic politeness.

Interestingly, he said that he tended to compare our relationship to his parents relationship and the relationship of his friends and because he was working from those extremely low baselines he figured he was doing well. Basically because his father treats his mother literally like a dog, shouting orders and reprimands, he counted the fact that he speaks kindly to me as a particularly good point. Of course he sees now that speaking kindly is one of the bare minimum requirements of a relationship and really nothing to be proud of.

I think he's struggling a lot with reassessing his parents' relationship. He has a lot of respect for his parents, his mother in particular, and he is loath to revisit his childhood with a critical eye. I was sympathetic to that, and explained that he doesn't have to write off his happy memories - they stay as they are, untouched. But he does have to gain some measure of objectivity and try to assess what poor examples he has picked up from them and undo the damage they may have done.
He accepted that.

After that the conversation took quite a positive turn and we discussed future career prospects for me, so we ended on a good note.

"I said it felt like he's asked me to set up hoops to jump through and then provide a detailed map to the hoops then to go along and place his feet through the hoops and once I've done all the work to get him through, he'll then say "I've jumped through the hoops, now you have to stay.""

your insight is incredible cailin

I can remember learning about the Sacrament of Matrimony in our convent school RE lessons. There was a diagram with arrows that showed how each spouse must give 100%, it looked like this:

50% --->

Well done for not getting drawn in, cailin

Cailin, you are my heroine!

Thanks you Petula, Buffy and Vezzie.

Strangely enough, despite the fact that I've generally been so negative, DH actually seems happier this past week, or at least more energised and with it. I suppose that could be because he feels he can change things?

Aww Yonic

It's interesting what you say about that RE lesson Vezzie. Misogynistic as the Catholic church is, I actually found the pre-marriage course we had to do with the church very good, as it was centred around issues like money, children etc that can be sources of conflict in relationships. It didn't address, though, the effort and input thing, which I think is the starting point for all these issues.

interesting that he seems happier

i wonder whether it's because your new framing of the situation has removed (in his mind) the dynamic of you as fed up nagging wife and him as husband trying to get away with the minimum just to get you off his back.

please don't think that that's how i view you - it most definitely isn't. but you have repositioned yourself in the dynamic and he has had to do the same

I've had a couple of real deja-vu moments just now reading your posts, Cailin and Vezzie.

The first is that "going away, thinking about it, then presenting you with a fait accompli" moment. That was the moment I realise (in retrospect) things were dead in the water with my ex. After 2 years of long distance (different continents) for the sake of his career, my ex sent me a 2 line e-mail saying "I've decided to take the job in city x [a 4 1/2 hour train journey from where I lived and worked]. I hope we can find travel arrangements that work." The last 6 months before he'd gone abroad, I'd been working in London, and he in City x, and it just about killed me (because guess what, I was the one sitting on the train or driving up and down the motorway 4 weekends out of 5) - in fact I blame the breakdown in my health the year after (thyroid troubles) on the knock on effects of the stress of that period.

The second deja vu moment is that I did at one stage have a boyfriend who genuinely was in the 100% effort each way category - and it was such an amazing experience, and so positive - in that he gave so much of himself (not just to me: the thing that first attracted me to him was how caring and considerate he was towards all of his friends) that I found myself giving back, and it just escalated in a good way - there was no keeping score at all, because you didn't need to. (Unfortunately that relationship eventually foundered on religious differences, but it was probably the most positive relationship I've ever had).

"Interestingly, he said that he tended to compare our relationship to his parents relationship and the relationship of his friends and because he was working from those extremely low baselines he figured he was doing well"

I remember reading on here once that most people compare their marriages to that of their friends of their parents, not to those of their partner.

So because we all know so many people whose marriages really are god-awful, men can congratulate themselves on what lovely husbands they are and women can breath a sigh of relief that their Nigel is nowhere near as awful as all the others out there.

Whereas if they compared their marriage to that of their spouse, things wouldn't look quite so rosy.

Cailin, I've just read this thread, and just wanted to say how inspirational I think the way you're handling this is. You're overcoming such a difficult starting point in term of both your and your DH's backgrounds, compounded by the tendency of even the most equal relationships to slip into stereotypical patterns when you have young children.

I guess it's natural to compare other people's situations to our own, and this discussion has really made me feel grateful for the advantages my relationship has had from the start (fairly equal role models in parents on both sides, getting together young, the fact that I've always felt I could stand up for what I want and expect to be given fair consideration). Despite those inherent advantages, though, there have certainly been times, particularly when our children were small, when I've felt we've slipped into unhealthy patterns, so I can completely understand how hard it must be to try to break out of a pattern that's existed for the whole of your relationship.

I have a couple of practical suggestions of things that have helped us break out of the wife work trap, but I'm not sure if that's something that would help at the moment or not? Completely understand if you need to avoid that sort of thing right now, while you wait to see what your DH comes up with to improve things.

Lurcio - I've said to DH in the past that I am willing to give 100% and if he could do the same we'd have a great relationship. Thing is, I reckon he thought he was giving 100% simply by turning up and not being a dickhead.

Amber I'd be interested in your suggestions.

Amberthecat, I would be interested in the practical suggestions.

askBasil - I think that is a point made in wifework - that men who think they do a lot compare themselves to other men, not to any women at all.

I think that in general things are getting better for me but I feel like society is set up to undervalue both facets of my contribution:

• WOH, hard, leaving early, coming home late - I am unnatural, greedy, and having a jolly in the city probably just drinking posh coffee with funny names all the time
• domestic stuff at home, even if it's late and I'm really busy I will make sure there are clean clothes for dcs etc - well obviously I do that, what sort of mean lazy mother wouldn't?

Meanwhile everything DP does is overvalued

• WOH - good on him, solid manly salary man
• domestic stuff at home, no matter how little - HE IS A VERY LANCELOT OF CHIVALROUS VIRTUE

I suspect DP of falling for this value system himself. no idea how to unpick this

quite honestly a lot of this makes me terrified to have children. so far things have been relatively equal - we mostly divide things evenly especially as i have long days out of the house so dp does most daily jobs in the evening when he gets home.

dp is very good actually at stopping my conditioned behaviour, e.g. when i go away for work and start fretting about food/washing he just says "i know where the supermarket, oven and the washing machine are, i don't need you to do it for me". but still my diary is marked up with his movements and mine, and he just has his work planner, i am in charge of the lists and remembering things and his mother sends me emails asking me to remind him to do xyz. i can see how with time and/or children this could morph into wifework if i'm not vigilant. but i shouldn't have to be vigilant

HE IS THE VERY LANCELOT OF CHIVALROUS VIRTUE

This made me laugh (wryly).

DH said, of his own accord, last night that he overvalues his contribution and undervalues mine.

Petula - you are right to be wary. In many ways I was vigilant pre-children too, for example, I absolutely refused to accept MIL's attempts to get me to organise DH's social calendar, to the extent that eventually I started asking her why she was calling me and had she forgotten DH's phone number? Resisting being social secretary is very important IMO, as once children come along you will be expected to remember all gifts, all birthdays, all family events etc etc. What happens to a lot of mums is that their birthday becomes a total non-event as there is no one to remember it.

It's very hard to identify the things pre-children that become a problem once children are around. So much stuff that you can just let go pre-children becomes much more of an issue when children are there and time is of the essence. Plus, things like eating rubbish food or failing to do washing up are petty when there's no children but very important when children arrive. You can't feed a child constant streams of crap and you can't feed them out of dirty bottles.
Plus, the jobs multiply. Where once there were only two adults who needed to go to the dentist and who could organise their own appointments (or not, their tooth loss) there are now little people who need appointments made for them, and someone to bring them there. Equally where once there were two adults who could tell when they were ill and take themselves off to the doctor or bed, there is now a little one who can only cry and who needs to be monitored and cared for and brought to the doctor when ill.
There are also twenty (or more) new nails that need to be cut, a new body or bodies needing washing, a new mess-monster to clean up after. On top of that, babies need to carried, and fed, and nurtured and played with. The sheer quantity of work that comes with a baby is massive. And yet, many men seem to think it's fine for them to just carry on as ever with the added bonus of a few baby cuddles now and again, while the woman is at home, without the routine and validation of work, trying to fit all those jobs around a tiny demanding being who doesn't do anything for itself, and who, quite often, doesn't sleep, while at the same time caring for herself, putting a meal on the table and keeping the house clean.

What always strikes me is the attitude that when a woman is looking after children, she is doing nothing, and she should be able to do all the housework at the same time. But when a man is looking after children, he is a hero doing and impossible job and he can't possibly be expected to put the milk back in the fridge or wipe baby Johnny's face - it's just too much!

Practical suggestions welcomed here too Amber! I have sometimes thought about the detailed list of tasks and timings a PP mentioned but it does feel PA. Plus I WOH part time and DH full time so I can never work out what a fair distribution actually is.

In terms of a fair distribution, the thing to look at is leisure time I think EE. Actual leisure time, without children or housework. It's up to you whether you think it's fair to include lunchbreaks or commuting, that depends on your jobs really. But basically you should both have equal amounts of child-free, work-free time every week. BTW shopping for children's clothes does not count as leisure time, it counts as work as it's a job that someone needs to do.

and properly child-free too, not being the only responsible adult in the house while the children are in bed?

not just being...

i mean free to come and go as you please

Yes, properly child-free. If the children are asleep then you're still looking after them (assuming they're still too young to be left alone), that is childcare.