Would really appreciate some help

[cailindana]

Even though this is a relationship problem, I posted here because I think I will get better advice.

Rather unexpectedly, I find myself unwilling to continue with my DH. We've been together for 12 years and married for 6. We have two children.

I was brought up in Ireland and I would say my childhood was steeped in misogyny. The subtle messages I was always given were that men were the Important People who must be kept happy at all times and women were sinful idiots who were there to be slaves to men.

I railed against those messages, but inevitably they seeped in to some extent. Also, I was sexually abused as a child and my parents didn't care - what did I expect? I was a girl, that's what happens to girls.

So, despite being intelligent and relatively confident (I did a lot of acting in my teens, including big stage roles and some film parts) I got to age 19 with little or no sense of my own self worth. I then met DH and fell madly in love.

He was absolutely right for me at the time. He listened to me talk about the abuse I suffered, he was stable and kind and nuturing. We had a few rocky patches but I very much believed in love and when I married him I was extremely happy.

Now, six years later, I feel that, while the relationship was good for me when I was totally lacking in self esteem, looking for someone to make a family with and desperate for someone to love, it now does not work any more.

I've tried to talk to DH and he is very keen to change but I think he can't.

Kind as DH is, I have always come second in our relationship. I accepted that, most of the time. I now see though that any time I tried to push forward and insist some priority went to me, he subtly pushed back, was outwardly supportive but practically uncooperative, and as a result I have curtailed my life in order to fit with our relationship, which has essentially revolved around giving him the life he wants.

That's not to say I haven't benefited from our relationship, far from it. We have had some very good times, we have two wonderful children, and we have a nice home in a great place.

I feel though that while he has benefited massively from our relationship, I have made many many sacrifices. The crunch point came for me when I asked him to make one small sacrifice for me and he said no. Outright would not inconvenience himself in any small way for me to pursue my dreams.

I cannot come back from it. Whereas all the pushing back down through the years has been subtle, this was blatant. While all the time saying he wanted me to have a career, he wanted me to progress, he would support me blah blah blah, when he had to have one ounce of inconvenience to make that happen he just said no. And it all became plain to me.

Once, our relationship worked. I was a broken woman looking for security and I was happy to trail around after him, being his cheerleader and supporting him.

Now I want a life of my own. I do not want to have an "also starring" role in his production. He has shown by his actions that he does not want to support that.

So I feel I have to move on. But I will not make this decision lightly and I need some help to talk it through. Your help would be much appreciated.

Enforcing boundaries is exhausting. And, for me, rage-inducing. Once I'm on the 2nd reminder, I can't think very rationally about it. Besides, boundaries require a consequence and mine is "this isn't working, I'm outta here" these days. (so take my posts with that in mind!).

I've got a similar scenario in relation to work at the moment, and my patience is wearing equally thin.

What does he want? Has he told you outright?

You can make lots of lists but it won't really help you decide. Becoming a single parent IS tough. But it's also really hard to be happy living with someone who doesn't you view you as their equal.

He probably would offload childcare onto you if you split, let's make no bones about that.

So the fact is, it won't be easier splitting up… but you may not feel so destroyed on the inside. That's the difference.

Checking in to offer and plan to come back later.

If you do split, and he marries again, I'm afraid I can imagine the threads about him on Step-parenting.

Lurcio, I have been thinking about this ever since you said it

"Asking to be recognised as a full and equal member of the human race is not being too romantic."

Do you think that many women in relationships with men are regarded by them as true equals?

I kind of hate to admit this but I think that if you have children and a sort of normal-ish job (neither a rich high-flyer, nor managing solely on benefits), it is only by putting up with being patronised and belittled a bit in your daily life, and domestically exploited, that you are going to get day to day help that can take the edge of what would otherwise be an utterly exhausted life of drudgery to the point of frequent misery. (I am perhaps not very robust; maybe there are many women who do what I would have to do if I left DP with a light heart and tons of energy). I think it is kind of a bit over-romantic to imagine that it is only worth it if with someone who thinks of you as a true equal. Because that is not what I have, and I often think about the reality of leaving and what I have doesn't seem bad enough. I have an honest, kind man who doesn't listen properly to me, patronises me a fair bit, is very clever about everything that has nothing to do with feminism and spends a lot of time with our children.

It is the case that I do often feel as if I am hardly living life, more scrabbling along on an inch or so of cliff that I have available to me, while some sort of roiling doom is below and above is some sort of grassy meadow that I hear of other people living from time to time, but have no idea how to access. I don't think that is him though, or not entirely down to him. I have to admit the inches of rock that I have to cling to have grown much wider since my girls started sleeping and I still have hope that they will grow wider still, but it's not life, exactly, or freedom. I don't think I have felt ok since I got pregnant really, although I have felt increasingly used to feeling exhausted and erased.

cailin I don't have any words of wisdom (plus I absolutely hate my life right now so I've just drunk a bottle of shiraz), but I just wanted to say I hope you can find the right path for you.

Like CrotchMaven, I cannot be doing with endless negotiations and renegotiations and reminders etc etc ad nauseum. I'm a bit more kneejerk than her though - where she says "this isn't working, I'm outta here," I say "Get fucked, pal!" So really I'm not well placed to offer advice. I do think that what many previous posters have said about being true to yourself is very important, though. Don't bend yourself out of shape for the sake of staying in a relationship.

For what it's worth I think you always come across as being really intelligent, funny, thoughtful and compassionate. I think your DH has fucked up royally by letting you down and putting himself in a position where he might lose you.

My counsellor pointed out to me this week that feeling equal in a relationship is essential to its success. There is not a single part of life where inequality works. Resentment creeps in. ... Always.
If your partner fundamentally sees you as lesser your relationship is doomed unless you find a way to become equal.
This might come from your work but without help it will never come. You need him to help you find equality and that scares him.

Vezzie

gin, I was being kinda diplomatic. At the moment I am on a weeks hols, luckily arranged before telling my boss 10 days ago exactly where my boundaries are. Whilst Friday night pissed. It wasn't pretty and I actually don't know where I stand. I think we need the space. I'm somewhat all or nothing when it comes to boundaries.

cailindana, can you access counselling? Is it possible that asking your husband who he thinks he is in the presence of a third party might give you the answer you need to make a decision?

And vezzie, much love to you too.

Who do they think they are?

It's so bleak.

Vezzie

My life is not unrelenting drudgery. It's very hard work. But I have a job I find fascinating, a DS who is delightful fun and irritating 6 year old in equal measures (just like any other 6 year old), we do fun things, travel, do out-doorsy stuff together, I see my friends, I manage to keep my musical life going by paying a babysitter every week... I'm going to be brutally honest here: I would not swap with you for all the tea in China.

I have a lot of married friends - some are in situations like yours, some are in partnerships where there is mutual respect. It's not a romantic dream to think you can have that. Yes there can be thoughtlessness - after a year's maternity leave, often the patterns of "woman books medical appointments, packs nursery bag, makes packed lunches" are so entrenched that they can't be undone, or it's very hard to undo them. But wanting a man who listens, who doesn't patronise you... no, wanting that is not being overly romantic. It sounds harsh, I know, but I divide my married female friends into the ones where I think "I wouldn't mind what she's got" and those I mentally file as "married single parents." I read a great analogy on here in the Relationships section: it's like a staircase. There are great marriages up the top. But as a single parent, you're already half way up (I'd say two thirds). Indifferent or bad marriages are further down the staircase. (And abusive ones are even further down, locked in a dark cellar).

Hi Cailin, just saw your post, and popping to give my 2c worth. As some of you know, I have had to overcome personal trauma of my own, and part of the healing process way challenging some of my deepest held values about my life and finding a way to effect long lasting personal change.

He is not a bad person. He has lovely qualities. But he was brought up with a misogynistic racist father and an apologetic, self-sacrificing mother. He has male privilege running in his blood, so deep he can't identify it.

OK, this says so, so much about him. I will try to break it down bit by bit. So he has a misogynistic/sexist streak about him - he sees men as far more important than women, so no matter what he says about seeing you as important, equality in the relationship etc etc, his actions tell you otherwise. As you have alluded, this is a deep, deep seated value/way of seeing the world, and requires someone to really, really analyse their way of thinking and decide if they are going to continue accepting this value, or reject it, and thus change their ways. Since he cannot even identify that he holds this value, there is no hope that he can change it. Thus when you bring up the subject for discussion, he changes for 3-4 weeks, then goes back to his own ways. So first, he needs to accept that he does have a misogynistic/sexist view of marriage and marriage equality, then recognise that it needs to change, then go about do the things necessary to change that dynamic - not as easy as it appears in print, obviously. This is the 'him' side of the equation.

Now I will deal with the 'you' side of the equation:

He was absolutely right for me at the time...... [the relationship] now does not work any more.

This indicates that you have gone through personal growth - good for you. You have changed, and you have improved your self esteem and confidence, and are now in a different place to the 19 yr old you that met your now H. You recognise the cultural misogyny/sexism of Ireland, and how that impacts on you as an individual, and it seems that you have worked at coming to terms with this and how you will respond (eg taking on feminist values). However it appears that your H has not kept pace with your growth in this area, has not challenged his views of women, and so goes straight to 'women are not as valuable as men' as his default. The million dollar question is - Where to from here?

There is more to say, but I will leave it there for the moment. HTH.

Oh an addendum to the 'him' bit - if you cannot recognise/have no awareness/consciousness of a value/way of seeing the world/perception that you hold, you cannot ever hope to change it. Changing deep seated values/perceptions etc rely on being aware or recognising the value that you hold, accepting that you actually do hold this value, and finding a really, really good reason for changing (eg my wife is going to leave me, this value does me harm). As an aside, this is one reason why ultimatums (sometimes) do work, but it all starts with awareness/recognition/consciousness.

Oh dear, I didn't really think it was that bad. It isn't, really! Thank you for the flowers, anyway.

I think if we had a lot of time and money we could manage some kind of change through counselling but as it is, we just plod on really. We both work full time, and consider ourselves lucky if we get a chance to floss our teeth.

I like much in my life - my children are an ever increasing source of deep joy and I would not have had them if I had not thrown caution to the wind and made a commitment to DP (I cannot bring myself to get actually married, which I should)

Sorry Vezzie - take everything I say at the mo with a pinch of salt as it is all coming from a place of exhaustion and hormonal grumpiness (started HRT yesterday, so hoping to be on a bit more of an even keel by this time next week). Reading back I was overly harsh.

And I guess I am quite unusual in that I think I meet the technical definition of an introvert (as in someone who "recharges their batteries" by spending time alone rather than getting energised by other people: in other words, not the popular culture stereotype of "loner who avoids company" - I'm actually affable and like people, so long as I get a bit of quiet time in the mix). But this does mean I'm probably more able than average to deal with being on my own. Certainly, I read women on the single parent board here talking about how lonely they get in the evenings after the children are in bed, and just think "oh, I must be really odd, because I don't get that."

But thinking back over my life, I've been in a couple of long-ish relationships (5 years, so peanuts compared to the average marriage) and a few medium term ones (year or two). And I'd say that I'm more me when I'm on my own, if that makes sense. So much of me seems to disappear into accommodating my partner's interests, hobbies, career plans etc. when I'm with someone. I've had relationships which have on a lot of levels made me very happy, but underneath there's always been this undercurrent which I've had to make huge efforts to ignore of "but the happiness is superficial, and it comes at some fundamental cost to who you are." Now it could be that all this tells you is that I am myself a deeply selfish person who finds compromise difficult, or it could tell you something about the way women are socialised to be carers, nurturers, compromisers, and that this comes at a cost.

Interestingly, for the first time in my life I find myself in a situation where there is a kind of possibility of "political lesbianism", and one of the standing jokes I have with the friend with whom I'm skirting round this issue is that she thinks I'd "be the bloke" in our relationship. Now it is undoubtedly true that she is tidy and I'm a bit of a domestic slattern - but I think my response is perhaps interesting - I have an awareness of this mismatch and a very clear sense that I'd have to "step up to the plate" and not slack off, because tempting as it would be to let the other person take the burden, it wouldn't be fair. Whereas I think with most men, the socialisation is so strong that they don't even notice there's a plate there to be stepped up to! The key is what happens when it's pointed out to them: do they react by paying lip service to the idea while continuing to enjoy the privilege given by socialisation (that the woman will continue to clean even if she's not happy about it, and they've been socialised not to feel too guilty about it); or do they recognise the unfairness and try to do their bit?

(Incidentally the political lesbianism idea isn't going to be a runner, I fear, for a number of reasons, top of which is probably that at heart we are both heterosexual).

Lurcio, I didn't think you were too harsh - I am just finding the general outflow of sympathy quite misplaced!

I am the classic introvert in the Myers Briggs sense too. I think this is actually one of the reasons why things work to the extent that they do between me and DP, because I get worn out at work and don't run home wanting to find a social talky soul-mate waiting for me. On holiday, or on weekend evenings with a glass of wine, we can have very interesting and wide ranging conversations but essentially in day to day life I am not gagging for company and neither is dp. So we don't rub each other up the wrong way with one of us leaping about doing the "give me attention" song and dance, and the other one not able to play. (but we actually have separate bedrooms in order to manage this - because I need actual solitude in order to switch off from being agreeable. just an agreement that "we aren't on duty" isn't enough, for me - socialisation to please)

very interesting about your potential new relationship. If you don't mind me asking - if you think you are hetero at heart, and you are ok without company, then .... what brought you to consider it?

I find that hobbies etc don't really matter because I am too burnt out to think about all that anyway. It's not like I am thinking "But if dp won't support me, how will I become a lion tamer?"

Won't go into too many details, but it's a fairly long standing friendship, and we got into the habit of joking around about how compatible we'd be living together... then suddenly it struck me that the situation had sort of crept up on me and blindsided me without me noticing it because of assumptions about us both being heterosexual, but that if it had been a man, I'd have picked up signals really early on that this was a "joking about it to allow us both an easy out if we want to back off, but actually it's not a joke at all" sort of situation. Which left me in a bit of an emotional tail-spin. It won't go anywhere for a number of reasons, but it's made me sit down and do some serious thinking about relationships, and what a relationship might be like stripped of the layers of socialisation, or at least, when both of you were coming from the same socialisation.

Thanks gin.

We went out for a drink (MIL babysitting) and had a big talk last night. Talking with you guys here really helped me clarify my thoughts, thank you so much for that, so I was able to be clear with him about what I wanted.

We talked for a while, but essentially the upshot of what I said was that I've poured a massive amount of energy into our relationship, and partially that suited me as because I had such low self worth it was easier for me to let him go out and do things while I stayed at home and reaped the benefits in a vicarious way. However, it doesn't suit me any more and I won't be putting any more energy into our relationship. I said that if he wants the relationship to keep going then it's up to him, entirely up to him, to keep it going (if that's even possible) but I am not doing anything more.

I brought up times in our relationship, big, significant times, when he's been very selfish and I pointed out to him that essentially in his life he has has the input and energy of one and a half people - himself and half (if not more) of me - with the constant background support of his parents (who are very good parents). I, on the other hand have had the input of half a person (me), and that half was divided to practically nothing when we had two kids. Added to that, my "parents" are not parents at all, so I have never had that support. I am at the stage in my life now where I want to put my energy into me. I have spent so much time keeping our relationship going, keeping him happy, making sure things are ok for him that I have become practically non-existent. I pointed out to him that my putting energy into him isn't inherently a bad thing, it is actually a very positive thing in an equal relationship, but given that he has just sucked that energy and kept all his energy for himself then the relationship has been a massive support to him and a drain on me. And that can't continue.

He accepted what I was saying and was, as usual very sorry about the things I pointed out.

He did say he felt his father (who is a shithead) was a really bad rolemodel to him and that he's ashamed and upset that he has picked up some elements of his attitude. He accepts that the way he has acted reflects a sexist attitude and he wants to change that. He said he doesn't know how to change it.

I suggested reading up on feminism, which I think will help, but I'm not sure how much. I talked about combatting his control freakery tendencies, which he accepted.

I then explained what I want to do for myself in terms of putting energy into myself, being true to what I want etc. I laid it on the line. I asked if he had anything say.

He replied that he wanted us to stay together, he wanted to change, he wanted this and that and the other.

I asked if he could think for a moment if there was anything else he wanted to add to that. He looked nonplussed.

I said "I have sat here saying how much energy I have put into you and how much that has impact my life. I have detailed what I want to do to rectify that. Given that you want to be a better partner, what do you think is the appropriate response to that?"

His response was "What can I do to help?" - looking a bit uncertain.

"Alleluia" I said.

I pointed out to him that even in this crunch conversation nothing I was saying was going in. I was saying what I wanted and needed and when asked he just went back to "I want, I this, I that, I, I, I." Always about him, always.

I said he was quite welcome to try to change but I was having no hand in that. It was up to him to change and he shouldn't do it to keep me because there was no guarantee that would happen. The change should entirely be off his own back for his own gain and with his own effort. I reiterated that I was not pouring any more energy into him. I was not doing anything to repair the relationship.

He accepted that.

When we got home we went straight to bed at which point he said, "I'm tired I'm going to sleep."
I said, fine, thinking "typical, deciding when to end the conversation," and turned over.
Couple of minutes later he said, "I just realised I controlled the conversation by deciding to go to sleep. Sorry. Is there anything you want to say?"
Which, small as it seems is a tiny watershed in his thinking.

We did talk a bit more, mainly about feminism and went to sleep on good terms.

Well done Caillin - it sounds like you've been amazingly strong and focussed in managing to put things across to him. And I guess now you have to see what happens - the proof of the pudding, and all that. Good luck.

Well done!

If that doesn't make him actually take the responsibility for changing the way he acts and thinks, then at the very least you will know that you explained it and he acknowledged it, and there was no ambiguity about what needs to happen.

Thanks.

I'm feeling very calm about the whole thing. There was a time when I'd have been worrying about he felt, worrying he was upset, worrying he was going to strain himself trying to make things better.

It's not that I don't care now, it's that I realise that's not my problem, I am not responsible for how he feels. What I have said is not malicious or deliberately hurtful, it's just how I feel and I have a right to stand up for that. At the same time, I haven't said he has to stay in this relationship, if he feels he can't deal with what I'm asking for, he can just leave.

It actually feels pretty darn good.