Would really appreciate some help

[cailindana]

Even though this is a relationship problem, I posted here because I think I will get better advice.

Rather unexpectedly, I find myself unwilling to continue with my DH. We've been together for 12 years and married for 6. We have two children.

I was brought up in Ireland and I would say my childhood was steeped in misogyny. The subtle messages I was always given were that men were the Important People who must be kept happy at all times and women were sinful idiots who were there to be slaves to men.

I railed against those messages, but inevitably they seeped in to some extent. Also, I was sexually abused as a child and my parents didn't care - what did I expect? I was a girl, that's what happens to girls.

So, despite being intelligent and relatively confident (I did a lot of acting in my teens, including big stage roles and some film parts) I got to age 19 with little or no sense of my own self worth. I then met DH and fell madly in love.

He was absolutely right for me at the time. He listened to me talk about the abuse I suffered, he was stable and kind and nuturing. We had a few rocky patches but I very much believed in love and when I married him I was extremely happy.

Now, six years later, I feel that, while the relationship was good for me when I was totally lacking in self esteem, looking for someone to make a family with and desperate for someone to love, it now does not work any more.

I've tried to talk to DH and he is very keen to change but I think he can't.

Kind as DH is, I have always come second in our relationship. I accepted that, most of the time. I now see though that any time I tried to push forward and insist some priority went to me, he subtly pushed back, was outwardly supportive but practically uncooperative, and as a result I have curtailed my life in order to fit with our relationship, which has essentially revolved around giving him the life he wants.

That's not to say I haven't benefited from our relationship, far from it. We have had some very good times, we have two wonderful children, and we have a nice home in a great place.

I feel though that while he has benefited massively from our relationship, I have made many many sacrifices. The crunch point came for me when I asked him to make one small sacrifice for me and he said no. Outright would not inconvenience himself in any small way for me to pursue my dreams.

I cannot come back from it. Whereas all the pushing back down through the years has been subtle, this was blatant. While all the time saying he wanted me to have a career, he wanted me to progress, he would support me blah blah blah, when he had to have one ounce of inconvenience to make that happen he just said no. And it all became plain to me.

Once, our relationship worked. I was a broken woman looking for security and I was happy to trail around after him, being his cheerleader and supporting him.

Now I want a life of my own. I do not want to have an "also starring" role in his production. He has shown by his actions that he does not want to support that.

So I feel I have to move on. But I will not make this decision lightly and I need some help to talk it through. Your help would be much appreciated.

I do recognise that a very large part of the problem is my own social conditioning. I would see DH struggling and I would immediately step in, I would feel responsible for his feelings and afraid that if I didn't make things easy for him, he'd leave.

Now, I don't care if he leaves. Because I can manage without him. The last 18 months have shown that.

I am happy for him to stay, for now, but I am not going to do anything to facilitate or ensure that.

Just wanted to delurk and say I totally get where you're coming from. I also have a 3 and a 1 yo and DH and I have unwittingly fallen so far into the him:career, me:wife work, trap. I am increasingly resentful of him and quite honestly, don't know where to start to change the situation. I'd like to say it could be rectified, but as the day to day treadmill of life continues, it's hard to get off and take the time to reassess.

This week he's been late from work twice, knowing I'd be there to pick up the slack, and had to get up at the crack of dawn one morning as him going out early woke the kids. I was meant to be going out one of the late evenings, but that didn't happen (he said he'd be home early and wasn't, if I'd known, I'd have got a babysitter). I've organised his dad's birthday present and prompted him (yet again) to organise the cleaner he promised he'd sort out months ago. Now, I know I could do this myself but it's one thing he said he'd do. One little thing, and he hasn't done it. Grr.

I think social conditioning has a lot to answer for. I grew up with a mum who was a martyr and MIL's whole life has been spent facilitating FIL's career. Both DM and MIL think DH is amazing and, to be fair, he is a good man. He's ot abusive in any of the ways we so often see on here. He just doesn't think. However, I'm getting a bit sick of being the one who ensures everything functions around him and he only really has to take responsibility for the work aspect of his life. But if I stop, it'll be me and the children who suffer, won't it?

Anyway, sorry to derail but you have articulated many of the feelings I've been having recently so well - in fact, your thread has been a wake up call. I/we need to make some changes.

Best of luck to you.

Isn't it funny how our fears can have such an influence over what we do and don't do. I don't have a fear of my husband leaving me - but I smooth things over and step in to alleviate the fear of his reaction to me getting it wrong.
Because even if something is his responsibility - I have a fear that it will become my fault, or the children's fault and I don't want to see them upset either.

I would be so thrilled if my husband even knew who dworkin was let alone wanted to read her. But he mentions the word feminist as if it is dirty and some kind of minor hobby I have taken up to pass the time.

My aim for this week is to stop fearing...what is the worst that could happen? if he leaves, I'll cope, if he gets angry, I'll cope, if he kicks me out I'll cope (and get a cat!). Hopefully, as i am sure will happen in your case, OP, he won't do any of those things and might actually respect me a little for standing up for myself.

thank you for showing that fear isn't really to be feared.

I cosign Wifework for Mr. Cailin.

I really struggle with DP doing stuff in the house, even when I have so beyond-earned it. It makes me feel incredibly edgy but you know what? I am right to. It is something I will so often be punished for.

He likes to make out that all my problems stem from my original family and that he has never done anything to make things difficult for me. I know that originally it was set by my mum that her doing housework without help from girls would lead to bitterness and shouting and the thing to do was to jump up and take over. and now I think about it, having that pattern set by my mum was probably what made me fit for purpose in his eyes in the first place.

However, I have started really pulling things out and making him look at them.

this is the pattern:

I do too much, get stressed and ill, cry or otherwise break down
DP says "you have to ask me to do things"
I say "oh yes I will, you see, I forget I can do this" (thinks: why do I have to ask? Why don't you just do them? Oh well, I can ask)
Time passes, a few days, a week, whatever. Things stack up, I get stressed, I feel a crack up coming on, I say
"DP, please can you do this one thing?"
He gets arsey and punishes it for me in some way.

something like:

• calls me a "funny" name like "lady something" while he performs the task, or asks "is that to your satisfaction, madam" or something (doesn't finish but has been so sarcastic there is nothing I can say about that)
• doesn't do something else, leaves something very inconvenient undone in lieu
• asks for some other service done specifically for him, and gets really arsey if I push back on the basis that I am not really coping with everything I had to do in the first place, which is why I am asking him to do something
• gets incredibly stroppy, really banging around doing a shit job of whatever I asked him to do and then flounces off to his room and slams the door shut behind him (that was the one he did last NYE, at 11.55pm, turning the lights off behind him and leaving me alone for midnight, in the dark. Yes I did get up and put the lights back on, but it was interesting to me that he thought that there were no humans or adults left downstairs once he had gone. And mn went down, which of course was the first place I went for company - but this was not his fault)

SO.

A few weeks ago we had an exchange like this.
I couldn't make my lunch in the morning (when he was in bed still, as usual) because my lunch box was dirty in his bag. When I got to work I emailed: please do not use my lunchbox as then I can't have lunch the next day. (Unsaid: you have stashed away untold dirty boxes, please leave one for me that I can have free, un-negotiated access to) (this was shortly after one of the "please tell me how I can help you" exchanges)
I got a really shitty reply about how hard his life is and how mean I am to mention the trivial, petty lunchbox, which is the tiniest thing in the world, and I am the world's nastiest person for getting on his case about it.

I wrote the usual apology. Paused. Deleted it. And then wrote something like "this is what happens when I ask you for help. This is not helping me, this is making things hard for me and making it impossible ever to ask you for anything."

Then...

I got an apology!

There is a lot to change, and it is a massive pain in the arse having to keep managing everything you say and everything you ask for, etc. But that was not what I expected. and it changed my whole view of what was possible

Sorry to write such a long post on not-my-thread. Sorry Cailin. Just thought it was a place to share a small victory where I thought it might be understood

Don't apologise Vezzie, I'm interested to hear your experience as it chimes a lot with mine.

Although I have to say DH doesn't do the stropping or silly names thing. To me that really seems nasty to me. My DH can be subtly obstructive but never nasty.

He used to do the whole "just ask and I'll do it," thing, then he'd get what I called "teenage face" (you know what I mean!) every time I asked him. He would still do it, and he wouldn't sulk, but he would give me such a dirty look that I found the whole situation really punishing and stressful.
This was years ago. I sat him down and said I had two options - do everything myself or ask him to do it and be treated like an annoying nag. It was therefore not true that I could "just ask" if I wanted something done. Essentially he just didn't want to have to do any of it and would avoid doing it or get stroppy with me for asking. So, generally, I just didn't ask. I said at the time that the "rule" from then on was that if I asked him to do something he was absolutely required to be 100% polite about it. It worked to a certain extent but at that stage I was so used to him being obstructive that I tended not to ask anyway.

It fucks me off that over the years I have had to waste my time on these ridiculous conversations.

Wibbly and whatdoes - good luck. Please feel free to use this thread to talk about how things are going or to discuss anything you're finding hard - we can all learn together

for all having a tough time. Micromanaging "help" is Wifework too.

cailindana, this is a great consciousness-raising thread.

You said earlier in response to my question about what was going through his head that allowed him to make the decisions he did - it struck me, as it often does in these scenarios, that he has been living with fewer actual responsibilities (in terms of actions and thinking) than if he were single. That's why Wifework would be good. I see this all the time. It's like an equation goes on that work + less than equal-earning wife* + kids = subsidy to the wife. So, that's where the focus goes and the wife earns out the extra with additional work whilst the man can put all of his thinking into his work. It's a complete discounting of either their own responsibilities outwith the children, but also of their own personal stuff. That's why I say that this is where the real glass ceiling lies. It's not just about promoting your ilk etc, but also that the man has the commute time/evening/gym time/whatever to think about solving that work issue, rather than puzzling about problems to do with the kids/writing the shopping list/phoning the relatives etc.

When questioning his behaviour with other people, did he at least acknowledge his behaviour towards you? I hope, for both your sakes, that his lightbulb moment about that was additional to that about how he's treated you and that it was just your quick writing that gave a different impression.

*apologies if I've made assumptions

Sorry - So, paid work's where the focus goes and the wife earns out the extra with additional domestic work whilst the man can put all of his thinking into his paid work

Oh definitely Crotch, and I did point that out to him. I told him that if we split his life would get much harder and less comfortable while mine, in many ways, would get easier. Of course, I would have to contend with the whole "why did you leave him?" bullshit while he would get endless sympathy and support (because a man can't possibly be expected to do any of the things single mothers do day in day out without complaint) so from that point of view my life would be less...accepted by the outside world, but, again I'm at the stage of really not giving a shit about that.
I also pointed out that while he has 40 hours a week to focus and concentrate on his job I only have very limited, very short bursts of time to focus on mine. I still get it done though.

He did definitely acknowledge his behaviour towards me. I was quite impressed actually that he questioned his behaviour towards others because that said to me that he took in the fact that the problem lies with him, not with me.

It fucks me off that over the years I have had to waste my time on these ridiculous conversations

Yep. And this is the reason I don't think I'll ever have another relationship with a man. I look back on all the years I've spent in relationships and I just feel so angry and humiliated when I tot up all the thinking and bargaining and explaining and reasoning and backing down and accommodating. So much time and SO MUCH energy. Never again.

Cailin. I hope this works out well for YOU whichever way it goes.

I am married to a military man, which has its own challenges. He can and has been deployed for months at a time, and sometimes his work is completely inflexible.

But

5 years ago I had a chance at the job I nowdo, but it meant him transferring to what was considered by some of his colleagues to be a lower status job (because of the hours)and taking over most of the school and nursery runs, doing most of the cooking etc. But he did it.

Admittedly not just for me, the money I bring in helps all of us.

I do sometimes wonder if it is because I found him young (i am 7 years older than him) and the power dynamic has always been v equal.

Brilliant, thought provoking thread. Cailin I am in awe of your strength and clarity.

This chimes particularly with me at the moment - I am going for a weekend away tomorrow with two close friends, only the second since having DCs (5 years). DH hasn't had loads but substantially more than me. I nearly ended up cancelling because of the level of sulking he has done about it, and I'm very pleased reading this that I didn't. I am leaving at 6.30 tomorrow and have agreed to have given DCs dinner and baths before I go, I have planned meals, defrosted food, arranged a play date and got dress up clothes for a party. When DH has gone away, he goes without thinking about any of this - all my job anyway. He has now told me he wants to book a weekend away, which is fine of course, but added that he might book some time off work - so in fact have twice as long away, and has hinted he might want to go at half term. Which feels very like punishing me.

I struggle with discussing the day to day stuff as DH doesn't accept that there is an imbalance in our efforts. In the mornings, for example, he gets up, gets himself washed and dressed and gets breakfast ready, i.e. makes coffee and takes cereal out of the cupboard. I change nappy, get DC2 dressed, help DC1 to get dressed, make the beds, tidy up pyjamas, bring washing down and get myself ready too. But there's often huffing if I ask him to take DC2 so I can get dressed without demands to be picked up and cuddled, and when they are all having breakfast and I am still getting dressed, calls to me in a particular querulous PA tone of voice that sets my teeth on edge.

I'm really glad everyone has shared - I'm mainly a lurker on FWR and I have this sort of assumption that everyone else on here will have got this stuff sorted. It's heartening not to be alone at least, and Cailin your attitude is quite inspiring.

Have you mentioned to him that you expect him to have done the baths, cooked dinners etc. before he goes away elisaveta?

This is why I agree with gincamparidryvermouth. The level of entitlement implicit in your DH's behaviour is quite horrifying. Really horrifying.

It's so sad that so many women live with men who exploit them so shamelessly and don't even notice they're doing it. And if you pointed it out they'd be outraged because they're the good guys.

EE, have you straight out asked him why he thinks it's fair to leave you with the kids at half term and have a holiday by himself?

Why does he think he is more important than you?

I'm really glad you didn't cancel EE.

I think your DH's behaviour is awful.

In the past, when DH engaged in that type of behaviour, I would not only feel the consequences of the behaviour itself, I would also tie myself in knots trying to find a way to explain to him my feelings about it without causing an argument or hurting his feelings. So, not only was I missing out on equal free time etc but I was also carrying the burden of repairing the hurt I felt because of it. Essentially I was running the entire relationship, singlehandedly. Such a waste of effort.

How do you think you'll deal with this sort of thing in the future EE? It's fine to say "I don't know," sometimes it's just too hard to face up to dealing with something so fundamental and it's easier and better for the time being to let it slide.

Huge hugs to you all. I really appreciate the efforts of everyone who is struggling with this. change doesn't come from nowhere. A society doesn't change overnight and everyone who is struggling with this is doing something amazing for the future.

the difficulty is that to produce, for the purposes of discussion, a piece of analysis (verbally presented or on paper) of your respective time / energy units, would be perceived as a very aggressive and petty act. anti-love = destructive = unacceptable. But if you don't produce this piece of analysis then you are just talking vaguely about stuff that can be dismissed. feelings = being negative & baselessly critical = anti-love = unacceptable. So there is no acceptable language at our disposal for this within a relationship.

So this is why I have absolutely no patience with the idea that keeps popping up, when men get onto feminist threads, that there is a huge problem with the way we express ourselves that is holding us back. as LRD (I think?) keeps pointing out, no no and again no, you are deliberately ringfencing this verbal tool and that verbal tool to make sure we just don't get access to the verbal tools we need to say what we mean. There is no acceptable style or language for this and it is no fucking coincidence that we suddenly wake up and see that we have lost access to this voice in our relationships.

by the way in absolutely no other context ever have i ever been criticized for the way i express myself. I get invited to speak to small and large groups on tricky, potentially inflammatory or subtle or highly creative issues all the time. People seek me out to do that job, at my work, which is a global media company. What the fuck goes wrong that I am suddenly SO BAD at this at home? How do I have this HUGE localised failure that is so absolute that I can't be allowed to even approach this issue -because I just don't know how to express myself nicely?

The issue of course vezzie is not that you're not expressing yourself nicely, it's that your DP doesn't want to hear what you have to say. He just wants to shut you down and he knows you're so invested in appearing "nice" that he just has to press that button and you'll shut up.
Women are subtly but very effectively socialised to believe that they and only they are responsible for the smooth running of the relationship - they need to hold onto their man. So they are the ones that end up compromising and putting up with things while the men just suit themselves. It's shit.

"not only was I missing out on equal free time etc but I was also carrying the burden of repairing the hurt I felt because of it. Essentially I was running the entire relationship, singlehandedly. "

Cailin, your posts are full of wisdom.

Thank you for your thoughts. Like you Cailin I would like to be in this relationship in 30 years' time, but not at all costs. We have a lot of work to do to get our relationship into a better place, and the effort needs to come from both sides. My plan is to have a really good, relaxing weekend and then channel Cailin

Have a great weekend EE. Don't think or worry about your DH and kids, they will be absolutely fine.

I had to smile at the thought of you channelling me :) It's a massive compliment, thank you.

And thank you too Yonic. Are you ok, by the way?

I don't know if this rings true for anyone else, but I was very much taught growing up that my feelings were irrelevant and that what I thought or wanted was not important. My parents never ever validated me in any way and I have a massive tendency to worry endlessly about everyone else's feelings. Empathy and consideration are good traits but I have them to a very unhealthy degree and that's part of the problem. It sounds strange to say that becoming less "caring" will be an improvement for me, but it definitely will.

enormous admiration for you cailin. i inherited the ingrained sense that i am responsible for the emotional wellbeing of the whole family from my mother (responsibility extends to my parents and siblings as well as dp), and it's not like the messages you get from society counteract that at all. it is extremely difficult to break away from that as while caring for others is a good thing, when it's totally one-sided and to your own severe detriment it's ridiculous