Would really appreciate some help

[cailindana]

Even though this is a relationship problem, I posted here because I think I will get better advice.

Rather unexpectedly, I find myself unwilling to continue with my DH. We've been together for 12 years and married for 6. We have two children.

I was brought up in Ireland and I would say my childhood was steeped in misogyny. The subtle messages I was always given were that men were the Important People who must be kept happy at all times and women were sinful idiots who were there to be slaves to men.

I railed against those messages, but inevitably they seeped in to some extent. Also, I was sexually abused as a child and my parents didn't care - what did I expect? I was a girl, that's what happens to girls.

So, despite being intelligent and relatively confident (I did a lot of acting in my teens, including big stage roles and some film parts) I got to age 19 with little or no sense of my own self worth. I then met DH and fell madly in love.

He was absolutely right for me at the time. He listened to me talk about the abuse I suffered, he was stable and kind and nuturing. We had a few rocky patches but I very much believed in love and when I married him I was extremely happy.

Now, six years later, I feel that, while the relationship was good for me when I was totally lacking in self esteem, looking for someone to make a family with and desperate for someone to love, it now does not work any more.

I've tried to talk to DH and he is very keen to change but I think he can't.

Kind as DH is, I have always come second in our relationship. I accepted that, most of the time. I now see though that any time I tried to push forward and insist some priority went to me, he subtly pushed back, was outwardly supportive but practically uncooperative, and as a result I have curtailed my life in order to fit with our relationship, which has essentially revolved around giving him the life he wants.

That's not to say I haven't benefited from our relationship, far from it. We have had some very good times, we have two wonderful children, and we have a nice home in a great place.

I feel though that while he has benefited massively from our relationship, I have made many many sacrifices. The crunch point came for me when I asked him to make one small sacrifice for me and he said no. Outright would not inconvenience himself in any small way for me to pursue my dreams.

I cannot come back from it. Whereas all the pushing back down through the years has been subtle, this was blatant. While all the time saying he wanted me to have a career, he wanted me to progress, he would support me blah blah blah, when he had to have one ounce of inconvenience to make that happen he just said no. And it all became plain to me.

Once, our relationship worked. I was a broken woman looking for security and I was happy to trail around after him, being his cheerleader and supporting him.

Now I want a life of my own. I do not want to have an "also starring" role in his production. He has shown by his actions that he does not want to support that.

So I feel I have to move on. But I will not make this decision lightly and I need some help to talk it through. Your help would be much appreciated.

Well done, cailin.

I think it really sounds like he cares and he gets it, but let's see what happens!

All the very best of luck with everything xx

He is a caring person and he does get it to some extent. Where I think he'll struggle is when it comes to his control freakery and single-mindedness. He is very work oriented and tends to pour all his energy into that (something he has admitted of his own accord). It is very very hard for him to divide his attention and to give anything but the bare minimum to us. I get how hard it is, but I think life with small children is hard, tough luck, get on with it.

Sometimes they care, but not enough to override what's important to them. They change for a bit but then it slides back into the old way of doing things, because that's the easiest thing for them and it suits them. Who would want to give up all that privilege?

Your DH may be different, Cailin, I don't know.

Cailindana, that was an amazing update post. You must feel better having spoken with that much clarity.

All the very best, whatever happens.

Oh cailin....can you come and talk to my husband for me? You just stated everything I wish I could say. In my case the conversation would be met with incredulous looks and justifications. I would be left feeling even smaller.
I truly hope you husband is finally getting it and makes real changes. Make sure you hold him to it.

Cailin ive only just caught this thread. Best of luck and good wishes from me

My kids are 3 and 1 Buffy. I think having the kids has meant that I can't overlook the things I used to overlook. I love having children and I enjoy being a parent, and I want to devote as much energy as I can to it. My children need me to look out for them and make life good for them. He doesn't need that, he is an adult. He needs to be standing beside me looking out for the children with me. I once would have ploughed that need to care for someone into him, but I'm not interested in doing that any more as I have actual real children who genuinely need that care. I won't accept an adult diverting that care and energy away from them.

Thanks for the good wishes crotch.

whatdoesittake - you said "make sure you hold him to it." I will be holding him to absolutely nothing. Currently my viewpoint is that if the relationship works for me I will stay, if it doesn't I won't. I am not putting any energy into holding anyone to anything. In the past I would have policed his behaviour, I would have reminded him of things I needed etc. but I am just not doing that any more. He is an intelligent adult, he can see how things are and frankly he can suck it up or fuck off. I used to worry a lot about him leaving me, and a lot of my behaviour was fueled by a sense of not being worthy and of trying to keep him happy so he didn't leave. The fear kept me hostage and made me do and put up with things that I shouldn't have. But that fear is entirely gone. Entirely. I feel incredibly light and free without it.

In terms of progress, the progress I want is for me. Entirely totally and utterly for me. If in two/three years time he happens to still be here and the relationship is working, great, if not, great. That is not my focus at all any more.

I have put off looking after myself for 31 years. I may not have many years left, who knows. But for whatever time is left I am going to look out for myself.

Oh and thanks for the good wishes darkesteyes.

Thanks, Buffy, yes it has got easier already, post-baby-years.... and not just because it is practically easier but (whisper) I think I just get a whole lot more out of my children as they get older. Selfishly, the relationship changes as they become really interesting, lovely people to have around

Thing is though, vezzie, having small children is hard, but it's totally doable with two people who are completely on board and ready to do what it takes. If one partner takes on all the thinking, caring, worrying and a good chunk of the practical work, while seeing the other partner carrying on with life unfazed, then it is too hard because not only are you taking on all the work you are also seeing your so-called partner benefiting from having children without having any of the burden, and that is so angry-making.

So much of my very limited energy has been wasted on resenting my DH and I'm so angry about it.

On the back of our talk DH is planning loads of different things with the kids, plus the house is sparkling as he has been cleaning non-stop.

At one point I felt a bit sorry for him as he has taken on a lot and there seems so much for him to do.

And then I thought - I did all of that and more for 18 months with zero sleep and two children hanging off me at all times. And not a single fucker ever felt sorry for me.

I should add, in those 18 months I had pretty severe post natal depression, had issues with my breasts that required a biopsy that led to an ongoing infection while I was breastfeeding (that was fun!), I took no maternity leave so I was working at all times, and DH on a few occasions had to go away for days and nights in a row with work. DD wouldn't take a bottle so I bfing all day and all night, so I had only a tiny amount of sleep. As well as working part time I ran a playgroup twice a week, kept the children fed and clothed and cleaned the house. DH during that time never once ever took both children out for more than 3 hours and that was only because I insisted. So I had both children with me while I did all that (apart from DS's 6 hours at playschool) every day of the week all day and all night.

And I, for a moment, felt sorry for him because he's planning to take them to the library tomorrow afternoon and out to a museum on Saturday. Mug mug mug.

I said to DH the other night that I am proud of myself for doing all that but that it's also a crazy way to live and I won't be doing it any more.

And in all of that, when I was dealing with two children all day, battling PND and getting no sleep, while DH was sleeping 6-7 hours every night, he then decided that he needed a lie in at the weekend. Fair enough I thought (even though it wasn't fair) but then he started extending the lie in, from one hour to two hours to three hours.

FUCKING ARSEBISCUIT.

The thing is, I am ok with having done all that work, it was hard but I managed it. What makes it not ok is that I had a partner during all that, I wasn't on my own, and yet to look at the situation you'd never actually know that. Looking back on it I should be feeling proud and glad it's over but it's all clouded by the resentment I feel towards him.

Totally get it cailin, you explain so clearly.
I didn't do any of that when I had babies. I kept things very small and simple.

I hear you, cailindana.

Have you asked him why he thought it was ok to do (or not do) all of that stuff? How did he rationalise it to himself? I know you're not going back there in terms of discussion with him (great boundary setting for yourself!), but it's something I always wonder.

I hear you Cailin.

Crotch - the other night when he said he was going to change things I did ask him "why now? Why are you willing to step up now? What has changed?"

He said when we moved here and he got his current job he prioritised work, which he sees was the wrong thing to do. According to him he was so worried about work and about staying in control there and doing well and providing that he lost sight of his other responsibilities and assumed I had everything under control.

There is definitely a grain of truth in that. He enjoys his work and does well at it but there is a lot of subtle pressure to prove yourself and it is very unstable work as it is all short term contracts.

But, I then pointed out that this selfish behaviour has popped up throughout our relationship, so it can't all be attributed to work.

At this point he started crying and said he thinks it must be down to some really sexist thinking on his part, picked up partly from his dad and partly from society and that he doesn't like that in himself and wants to change it. He also said he is now questioning all of his interactions and relationships as he wonders in what ways his attitudes might have influenced his behaviour towards other people.

I commended him for that, but again, it is just all words until some action is taken and he has to take that action himself.

He has ordered Dworkin's book "Our Blood" on Amazon! I did warn him that it was a heavy read but he said he's up for it.

It's something at least.

Has he read Wifework?

No, he hasn't Yonic, but it might be a good one for him to read.

I think it would be of more practical assistance than a Dworkin book. And, I hesitate to say this, but maybe less of a "statement" and more of a solution.

Just catching up with this thread and rushing out somewhere else, but just wanted to say hope things work out whichever way he swings Cailin.

One thing did occur to me, what might be incredibly helpful to him (it has been to me) is CBT. I tackled an issue I had by filling out a form each time something happened to discuss later with my counsellor (and to think about myself. The form had:

incident
What my feelings were when incident happened
What the beliefs around those feelings are - why did I hve that feeling, where did it come from? What belief underpins it? This is the bit that needs working on, because this is the bit that leads to your DH having a vague feeling of resentment/ feeling hard done by when he is expected to pull his weight.

I did it with a counsellor but as soon as I started doing it, my behaviour changed, because my feeling changed. Because I knew I had to write it down later, I became conscious that I was doing it. So I was able to distance myself from it, see what was happening, why I was doing it and stop doing it. It sounds so simple and for me it was (apparently it isn't for everyone) but we're talking about a really deep-seated belief I had which I became aware of and tackled.

Not your job to pass this info on to your DH - it's his job to find it out of course - but might it be a useful shortcut for him? He could set up a form and every time he fucks up, he could make a note of it and think about why.

Good luck with whatever happens.