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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would really appreciate some help

172 replies

cailindana · 23/09/2014 13:47

Even though this is a relationship problem, I posted here because I think I will get better advice.

Rather unexpectedly, I find myself unwilling to continue with my DH. We've been together for 12 years and married for 6. We have two children.

I was brought up in Ireland and I would say my childhood was steeped in misogyny. The subtle messages I was always given were that men were the Important People who must be kept happy at all times and women were sinful idiots who were there to be slaves to men.

I railed against those messages, but inevitably they seeped in to some extent. Also, I was sexually abused as a child and my parents didn't care - what did I expect? I was a girl, that's what happens to girls.

So, despite being intelligent and relatively confident (I did a lot of acting in my teens, including big stage roles and some film parts) I got to age 19 with little or no sense of my own self worth. I then met DH and fell madly in love.

He was absolutely right for me at the time. He listened to me talk about the abuse I suffered, he was stable and kind and nuturing. We had a few rocky patches but I very much believed in love and when I married him I was extremely happy.

Now, six years later, I feel that, while the relationship was good for me when I was totally lacking in self esteem, looking for someone to make a family with and desperate for someone to love, it now does not work any more.

I've tried to talk to DH and he is very keen to change but I think he can't.

Kind as DH is, I have always come second in our relationship. I accepted that, most of the time. I now see though that any time I tried to push forward and insist some priority went to me, he subtly pushed back, was outwardly supportive but practically uncooperative, and as a result I have curtailed my life in order to fit with our relationship, which has essentially revolved around giving him the life he wants.

That's not to say I haven't benefited from our relationship, far from it. We have had some very good times, we have two wonderful children, and we have a nice home in a great place.

I feel though that while he has benefited massively from our relationship, I have made many many sacrifices. The crunch point came for me when I asked him to make one small sacrifice for me and he said no. Outright would not inconvenience himself in any small way for me to pursue my dreams.

I cannot come back from it. Whereas all the pushing back down through the years has been subtle, this was blatant. While all the time saying he wanted me to have a career, he wanted me to progress, he would support me blah blah blah, when he had to have one ounce of inconvenience to make that happen he just said no. And it all became plain to me.

Once, our relationship worked. I was a broken woman looking for security and I was happy to trail around after him, being his cheerleader and supporting him.

Now I want a life of my own. I do not want to have an "also starring" role in his production. He has shown by his actions that he does not want to support that.

So I feel I have to move on. But I will not make this decision lightly and I need some help to talk it through. Your help would be much appreciated.

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 14:59

I'm waffling now, but it does help.

I could stay in the relationship. Day to day, we get on well, great, even. He is (now) good with the kids, and we do enjoy each other's company.

But I feel if I stay with him I won't be being true to myself in so many ways.

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BuffyBotRebooted · 23/09/2014 15:06

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 15:09

I think I'll be letting myself down because I'll have to be more like him. I don't want to be more like him, I want to be me.

I definitely do not want One True Soulmate.

If I split from DH I would have no intention of ever being in a relationship ever again.

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CrotchMaven · 23/09/2014 15:10

Sadly, cailindana, he isn't going to have a light bulb moment, I don't think. At least not in the dynamic of your relationship. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the same story. He seems to think it is his right to sieze the world and for you to provide the family life that completes the picture. How you do that is up to you. This is the real glass ceiling.

I hope you can both manage the split amicably.

cailindana · 23/09/2014 15:27

Thanks qumquat. I hope things work out well for you.

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 15:28

I have to say I feel that way at the moment Crotch. Of course, there's a part of me that dearly hopes we can work it out, if only for the children's sake, but I really am at the stage where I feel like I've put absolutely the last drop of effort in, I've done enough and I'm not doing any more. My instinct is that he'll just pootle along as ever. And the relationship will die by neglect, simply because if I'm not sustaining it, it doesn't even exist really.

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vezzie · 23/09/2014 15:44

"All that really matters, whatever your relationship looks like from the outside, is that you are not feeling exploited, and I think that in order to feel that you need to take back some control for yourself. "

I think it is fine to be pragmatic about relationships. There are different points in your life where different things will deliver you nourishment and wholeness. When I was 19 (like you) it had to be a man - I needed love and sex. Now I am 42, I need work. One of the things my DP delivers is a secure environment for our children while I am off in London. He is trustworthy, kind, and he supports us - me to work, and the girls to feel safe and loved at home. If we didn't have children I might consider our relationship differently, as it doesn't quite cut it as luxury chocolate, but for bread and butter I am not going to mess with it.

If you can make your husband deliver an environment in which you can work, now is maybe the right time to do that. I really think Buffy is spot on in asking you to consider how you can make your life better, what his role in that might be and take action accordingly.

I know you are furious with him for being dishonest to you about the childcare and I get that. But now, what if you put it to him that he has to take a certain amount of responsibility that allows you to pursue your stuff? If you split, your family money will have to keep two residences (whoever earns it) and you might find it harder, not easier to follow your dreams. (I don't know whether this is correct or not)

I have to admit that I am jaded and cynical and it would never occur to me to split with a man because I might find someone better. I would stay with a man, or leave him, on the basis of that man, not because I have any hope of finding a man who is not, at heart, convinced that he is more important than me. THis may be wrong, but this is what I feel. If I ever decide it's over between DP and me, it won't be because I am thinking "this time I'll find the one who will really make me happy, and really value and respect me!" it will be because I can't be arsed having a man in my life anymore, other than for friendship or dates or sex. Like you, I would never be in a relationship again.

But, although you say that. I think in your heart you have a sense of the ethical or personal primacy of the romantic... that sharing a house with a man who isn't your white knight is some awful betrayal of a romantic ideal. Is that right? I am over romance. I was the very mostest romantic ever. But now I think it is a con, and I am happy to see relationships in terms of what they deliver (or not), rather than how they compare to a potential theoretical relationship that is shot through with mystical shards of honour and truth, or something. I think all that stuff is the language of selling marriage as honour and it's a con

cailindana · 23/09/2014 15:57

I have never been romantic. I got married on the basis that I loved DH and the relationship worked but with the belief that if it didn't work any more then I was prepared to leave. I did hope that I would never have to leave though.

I get that people fuck up. I've fucked up, majorly, in our relationship. There's a difference though between fucking up and fundamentally not being right for each other. I have said to DH that I don't see why he wants to stay with me if he knows I don't think he's up to scratch. I can't see how he'd feel happy with that.

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BuffyBotRebooted · 23/09/2014 15:58

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:01

I'm not sure about that Buffy. When in the past I have said screw it and I have become more like him (as in, focused on my own goals) he's become distant, whiney, attention seeking and obstructive and so I've stopped pursuing my goals in the belief that I was being selfish because look at poor old DH all put out etc.

He's the sort of man that if I have a sprained ankle, he has a dislocated liver. He must always go one better, he must always be the focus.

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:03

I am still fucked off about the fact that when DD was small and I was up 5-7 times a night with her as she was bf and would not settle for DH or take a bottle, he somehow wangled having a lie in at the weekend, a lie in that got longer and longer and longer because he was "so tired." He had a full 6-7 hours sleep every night. FUCKWIT!

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DoctorTwo · 23/09/2014 16:05

So on Sunday I said I'm out. I'm done with the relationship. He can try to repair it but I am doing nothing more.

So far he has done nothing.

I think this is your answer. No matter how many times you and he discuss this he will always go back to what he knows, because it's too easy for him not to.

But, as Buffy wrote, you leaving or asking him to leave might just be the kick up the arse he needs to change for good.

All the best whatever you decide to do.

BuffyBotRebooted · 23/09/2014 16:05

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LurcioAgain · 23/09/2014 16:07

Well, let's try another angle. Being a single parent is bloody hard work. So (assuming you have sorted the childcare in a way that works, even if it's not through him pulling his weight) how about making a list of pros and cons of each situation.

You've already mentioned some - being single: even more of the burden of organising childcare falls on you; but when the children are with him, you have time to yourself.

Include intangibles as well as the practical aspects - for instance the one that you've mentioned where in order to make your relationship work and have your career advance, you'd have to become more like him, i.e. more selfish, and you don't want yourself to become like that. (I've had that with a job I thought I'd love - I realised I was a round peg in a square hole, and that I wasn't sure what frightened me most - a life of pretending to be a square peg, or actually becoming that square peg).

But I think underneath it all the problem is that he only sees you as, I dunno, 70%, 80% of the person he is. And I don't see how you can live with that to be honest. There's a great bit in Julius Caesar, where Portia says "Am I yourself, but as it were, in sort or limitation, to keep with you at meals, comfort your bed and talk to you sometimes? Dwell I but in the suburbs of your good pleasure?" Is that where you feel you are, and can you cope with that? I think that's a very different issue from being overly romantic, or wanting a knight on a white charger. Asking to be recognised as a full and equal member of the human race is not being too romantic.

cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:08

Not I, Buffy.

He is not a bad person. He has lovely qualities. But he was brought up with a misogynistic racist father and an apologetic, self-sacrificing mother. He has male privilege running in his blood, so deep he can't identify it.

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vezzie · 23/09/2014 16:08

cailin, is he irish?

cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:11

No, he was born in England Vezzie to English parents, then lived in Ireland from age 10 to mid twenties.

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BuffyBotRebooted · 23/09/2014 16:15

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:21

The thing that precipitated the talk on Sunday where I said I'm done was that a couple of months ago we had (yet another) serious talk where I said I needed time off from the kids at the weekend, to work and to just relax. Last weekend I was waiting on something from a colleague and couldn't continue my work so I said, ok let's go out instead. DH had been away the previous weekend so I thought it'd be nice to spend some time together. We went out, but the next day DH then said "as you're not working I could do with some time to work and could you take the children out?" See, my automatic reaction to that is, "of course DH," so off I go with two kids. I was there with two screaming kids two hours later, facing into an imminent 40 hours of the same and I thought "WTF am I doing???" I told DH I needed time away but as soon as I don't actively guard that time he takes the piss and claims it for himself. I feel I have to protect myself from him and his tendency to take advantage of my good nature. I don't want to have to protect myself.

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vezzie · 23/09/2014 16:29

I totally get that, cailin. That feeling that you are on a treadmill that might be comfortable to keep going with two people on it but if you get on it, when it is not your turn, just our of niceness to the other person, unless you watch like a hawk, the other adult has sloped off on the basis that "you were here anyway" or something

If you separate you have hard solo times on the treadmill but at least you get to get off it totally and remove yourself from it sometimes.

the thing is I get why you don't want to be that person, protecting yourself, but without some kind of half-arsed partner you are directly protecting yourself from the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, (as lurcio has gone all shakespearian!) so the labour is the same or more, though the insult is less

BuffyBotRebooted · 23/09/2014 16:30

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:33

Yes it does Buffy, totally.

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cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:36

That is exactly it, vezzie, the treadmill thing. When I put my foot down he runs around being SuperHusband and SuperDad, cleaning, cooking, taking the children out. But as soon as I give any indication of being happy and relaxed, as soon as I step up my game again (following a period of being ill or unable to carry on) he totally slacks off again.

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JeanneDeMontbaston · 23/09/2014 16:36

Hi cailin. I'm really sorry you're going through this. I don't think I'm in a position to know a lot, because I don't have children, but this in your post struck me:

Splitting up would mean I have less time during the week so I think I would struggle on the parenting front as long days with the children make me snappy, so my parenting would suffer. But, handovers to him would mean I had genuine stretches of free time to devote to work and other things such as writing.

How sure can you be of that? I'm sure he is a devoted dad and would fully intend to split the childcare with you - but would it actually happen? Because it sounds as if one of the things you can't rely on is him making sure you get a fair amount of time off.

I am not sure whether or not that should influence what you decide, just wanted to raise the issue.

cailindana · 23/09/2014 16:44

Thanks Jeanne.

I don't really know to be honest, it is a valid question.

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