Why are feminists so threatened by the MRA movement?

[LaVoixDeLaRaison]

When I was at university, the Gender Equality society (of which I was a member) chose to rename itself the Feminist society, arguing that the only way equality could be achieved was by focusing on women's issues. This led some other students to set up an MRA group, which was met with some resistance from the feminists. On this very board I see commenters angrily referring to MRAs as if they are all members of an evil homogeneous group.

Isn't it possible that men and women both suffer oppression from society in different ways? That the levels of this oppression are not necessarily equal, but are still important if we are to achieve equality? I often see feminists agreeing with certain 'male issues' (e.g. media stereotypes, elevated male suicide rate), but suggesting that feminism has other priorities, and if they want to do something about these issues then they should make their own groups. Why do they get criticized when they do exactly that? Better still, wouldn't feminism be better off if it didn't alienate so many men (and women, focused on a wider range of issues, and stopped pitting the sexes against one another?

oh i missed that pop there

indeed, the OP has successfully lectured a number of women here in their own specialist subjects, which is rather funny to watch

I'll wait for your apology for your assumption that women on this thread are too stupid to be able to critique academic work first before I answer your latest ridiculous question.

Looks like I won't be answering it then. Those true colours shining through now aren't they?

identifying as a feminist and an MRA at the same time is like identifying as a civil rights activist and a white supremacist at the time. you'd need a split personality

Oh no, PetulaGordino, don't apologise for repeating what needed to be said, it obviously wasn't heard the first time. I don't have great expectations for the second time either, TBF.

StevesBollocksAnalogy
I tried answering that but you accused me of waffling! I have never claimed to know which problems would or would not have been solved by ending the patriarchy, only that it should not be automatically assumed that all men's issues are necessarily due to the patriarchy. I cited the possible difference between male and female brains as a reason why gender inequality might persist even in the face of completely equal socialization processes. Therefore I don't feel the need to provide any more issues, as the ones I have already mentioned are still valid.

CaptChaos
Simon Baron-Cohen is a professor at one of the most respected academic institutions in the world, and has devoted his entire career to studying psychology, including whether gender differences are learned, innate, or both. Likewise, Cordelia Fine has studied at Oxford, Cambridge, and UCL, and is a very talented academic. Can I be forgiven for assuming that the majority of people in this thread (male or female, and myself included) do not have this extensive academic background? That we can certainly debate with them, but should at least accept that they have more experience in these areas?

My comments were not indicative of any 'basic assumptions about women', and I think you knew that. Please don't take offence where it was not intended.

Ah yes, Steven Pinker.

try to reach my own conclusions based on academic honesty

Are you suggesting Cordelia Fine is not academic honesty? If not, what do you mean by this?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit
Sorry, what exactly about bodily autonomy? In this area, what rights do men have which are denied to women?

ChunkyPickle
I'm sorry that you've had to experience that, and that many many other women also experience that. But does that mean that men are unable to be sexually assaulted? Typically it's more serious when a man sexually assaults a woman (due to difference in physical size), but that doesn't mean that women have any less rights than men here. Sexual assault (regardless of gender) is a crime, and rightly so. Again, the fact that many men assume women to hold lower-paid jobs is harmful, but it does not mean that women have any less rights than men. Discrimination when hiring is illegal (unless it's 'positive' discrimination), and it's also illegal to pay a man more than a woman for the same job.

I mean academically honest.

The issues you listed were, as far as I could tell and none of the much better read feminists taking part in this discussion corrected me, a result of gender stereotyping. This is something that would not occur should we end up with the society feminism is aiming for. So those examples are, frankly, shite. The answer is, you don't know. Because you don't know, how can you claim that shifting the patriarchy is not going to solve the discrimination against men? How can you say that we as feminists are not going about this in the right way if you have no idea what other issues you face? In response to your half arsed brain argument, I would say that we can't know if the difference between female and male brains until gender equality is eradicated, otherwise learned behaviour would influence the development of the brain.

And don't fucking get me started on what rights men have that women don't. How the hell can you call yourself a feminist when you can't even see that?

Gosh this is still going. You lot are all either far more patient than me, or having a lot more fun with our little friend.

FloraFox

Honestly, yes. Either her or the opposing scientists I've listed (or both) are being academically dishonest, because they're arguing completely different perspectives. I read all the literature I could find on the subject, and concluded that, on the basis of the evidence I had seen, a combined nature-nurture explanation of sex differences made more sense than a pure nurture view.

Fairly recently, a man was raped when he was hitchhiking. By another man. As a response, there was increased police presence in the area to help men people feel safer. Because men were at risk. Women get raped all the time, no biggie. But a man? That's serious.

all you're demonstrating is you have no understanding of academia or science at all

What are your ideas as to how men's problems can be solved?

Imo, custody - take equal responsibility for parenting the child before divorce.
Health - take some responsibility for looking after yourself and going to the doctors more.
Reproduction - take responsibility for your own birth control and your choice of partners
Education - stop making boys will be boys excuses when they misbehave. Dont impose on them the idea that things like reading are girly.

Anything else? I know feminists that already do 4 but not sure how you expect them to deal with 1-3. Though I think your main aim is to ultimately discredit feminism.

Also mumsnet is quite well known for being full of women with extensive academic backgrounds. Though apparently not by the men who stroll in and quickly find themselves out of their depth.

"Discrimination when hiring is illegal (unless it's 'positive' discrimination)"

You really don't like research do you? Assuming you in the UK, do some proper reading on employment law.

Petula - Or law.

StevesBollocksAnalogy

But my issue is it's such a huge claim to suggest that these issues are a result of gender stereotyping! They might be, or they might not. Where's the evidence one way or another? Why is debate being shut down on this topic in feminist circles when we all want the same thing? I don't know whether ending the patriarchy would end these male issues, and neither you do. What's wrong with suggesting a different route, and discussing it on its own merits?

You don't have to get started on it if you don't want to, but I think the point remains. To clarify, I was talking about legal rights, and not societal stereotypes.

Male rape story for those interested

Or critiques of Pinker' s descent into oddness.

indeed

After following the suggestion of some posters here, I made a similar thread on the Reddit men's right page here. It's very easy to make an account there, so if you feel like a discussion there could be useful, please do get involved.

feminists have been researching and analysing and debating the influence of gender stereotyping for decades, and continue to do so

look at online discussions and literature passim for conversations about the extent to which xyz situation will have been influenced by gender stereotypes, or whether other factors have more bearing

if you declare yourself feminist you should know this

Voix, what is your theory into the causes of the men's issues you raise, if not social expectation of gender?

Tried that, got called a cunt who deserved to have her face punched in.

I see you linked to this thread. Prepare for the brigade everybody!