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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist Pub X: Regulars and new faces welcome, consciousness raising is a possibility.

999 replies

CaptChaos · 30/08/2014 00:33

The old pub now has less than 10 posts to go, so I thought I'd start a new one. The old one can be found here

This is a place for feminist pom pom waving and talking about stuff which might not need a thread for itself.

Fill your boots.

OP posts:
PetulaGordino · 08/09/2014 18:39

and yy linerunner - that's what i meant

CaptChaos · 08/09/2014 18:42

Linerunner... if there was a President Blair, I'd personally start a revolution!

Copper... surely this means we have to have a massive fight now?

OP posts:
WinifredTheLostDenver · 08/09/2014 19:11

Henry is unlikely to be king for long even if William and George predecease him.

I like the Royal family because Real Princesses Are Olympians. Grin

CaptChaos · 08/09/2014 19:15

She also swears a lot Grin

OP posts:
UptoapointLordCopper · 08/09/2014 20:24

Capt We can't have a massive fight. We are women and only qualify for catfights, not human ones.

CaptChaos · 08/09/2014 20:46

Ok Sad

Do I have to open hand slap? How do you feel about hair pulling and screaming? You know, like they do on TV?

Orrrrrrrrrr, we could just agree to have differing opinions and still be chums?

That would be much better. I'm not built to catfight Grin Also, you're pretty ace and I'd hate to fall out with you!

OP posts:
WinifredTheLostDenver · 08/09/2014 21:11

What about jousting it out?

Reclaim The Joust!

Grin
UptoapointLordCopper · 08/09/2014 21:21

The joust is pretty phallic though! Grin

Perhaps we can go against stereotype and agree to differ. Smile But the sky may fall down and it will be our fault.

CaptChaos · 08/09/2014 21:24

I'm sure it will be Buffy's fault. Almost everything else is.

OP posts:
BuffyBotRebooted · 08/09/2014 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UptoapointLordCopper · 08/09/2014 21:28

Oh how can I forget that? It's buffy's fault.

PetulaGordino · 08/09/2014 21:39

And just like that Lordcopper and capt are united again in their blame of buffy!

WinifredTheLostDenver · 08/09/2014 22:01
PetulaGordino · 08/09/2014 22:03
WinifredTheLostDenver · 08/09/2014 22:36

The Women of the Wars of the Roses is £1.11 on Kindle at the moment.

UptoapointLordCopper · 09/09/2014 07:50
Grin

Anticlimax.

Now to find out what dates the open evenings are in the high schools around us. Great excitement. Hmm

Zazzles007 · 09/09/2014 09:33

OK, I've started playing the new Tomb Raider reboot and have gotten a few hours into it. In terms of gameplay, it is fairly similar to the PS3 exclusive Uncharted. For those who don't play games, the premise of the story is a young archaeologist, Lara Croft, is traveling in search of adventure, and it is a 'coming of age' story in which she learns about herself, discovering her inner courage and bravery to eventually become the Tomb Raider of legend.

The first problem I have with this story is the premise. I have watched one of the 'making of Tomb Raider' videos on the game disc - first of all, all the presenters they have in this video are all men in their 30's and 40's. The initial presentation of Lara infantilises her, much more so than most 21 yr old women that I know. The question I have is why are men interested in presenting a story of a showing such an infantilised woman as the protagonist? Yes, it can be a coming of age story, but does the female protagonist have to start off in such a weak fashion?

When you compare this to the first Uncharted game, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, Nathan Drake, the male protagonist is cocky and brash. The first scenes open with him finding a treasure in the ocean, then his boat is besieged by pirates. Nathan then gets straight into the jobs of shooting and killing all the pirates, accompanied with witty one-liners.

Even in the first hours of the game, Lara keeps expressing doubts and negativity about herself:

  • At one point in the game Lara suggests to the research team about going to a certain geographical area, as there is more chance of achieving their goal. Two of her mail shipmates back her up. After the ship they are on wrecks on an island during a storm, Lara immediately takes the blame for 'landing them in that situation' (WTF?).

  • After the shipwreck, her shipmates are in all different locations on the island, but they have a walkie-talkie, one of which she has found. At one point she makes contact with a male ship mate, and asks him to rescue her.

  • In a conversation with another more senior male archaeologist, they are discussing the powerful female ruler Himiko, whose ruins they are searching for. At one point Lara says "A woman with power is often thought of as a witch". (Really? Is that what men think???)

  • At another point in the story, Lara finds another of her male ship mates who has been attacked by wolves. Although she did not cause the injuries she says “Sorry they did a real job on your leg.” (WTF is she apologising for??? How about "They did a real job on your leg.")

In addition to this, there are a couple of physical stoushes that Lara has gone through so far in the story. In each of them I noted that she looked like she was a victim of physical abuse. Compare this to Nathan Drake, where he would just have lots of flecks of blood on him. And this is why more women need to be in gaming so that the stories about women are more authentic, and not an infantilised version or women that men are comfortable producing.

The thing is, I always try to do a fair bit of research on the games that I buy so that I can make a considered decision. I had read a number of player comments on the game, and many of them (mostly male it appeared) also made the same obvious comparison that I did to the Uncharted games (although not with the feminist slant that I have written about here). The worst thing that one poster said was "Uncharted with boobs', a dreadfully sexist comment.

Your thoughts?

PetulaGordino · 09/09/2014 14:37

i'm out of my comfort zone with gaming as it's not something i've ever partaken of other than wii-type stuff. dp plays "age of empires" things (i think) which seem to involve battle strategy - so all the killing is at a distance! there seems to be some marrying off of daughters for political reasons Hmm

it does seem though that there is a particular sensitivity among elements of the gaming community re misogyny - is this because of the interactive element?

zazzles, in your research into games you are thinking of buying, is there any way to find out how many women developers were involved? i suspect there isn't that level of information, but it would be interesting to know i think in terms of comparing games for their portrayal of women as background/bystanders/objects/protagonists, and the way that them as playable characters are designed too

WinifredTheLostDenver · 09/09/2014 14:52

Zazzles, did you mean that post for the pub? Grin

BuffyBotRebooted · 09/09/2014 15:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PetulaGordino · 09/09/2014 16:11

i may have made this up. it might be another game (empire total war?) - he likes those sorts of ones. there's definitely one where you use daughters to form allegiances, but maybe that's fine because it's within historical context? i don't know much about the games though

BuffyBotRebooted · 09/09/2014 16:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PetulaGordino · 09/09/2014 16:21

oh boo

TerrariaMum · 09/09/2014 17:01

Petula, that sounds like Crusader Kings to me. To be fair, in that one, you can marry off your sons too and play a woman. I know because I have played it.

As to games, I love them, but playing games in 3D makes me really nauseous so I have to be careful in my research. I have found a few gems that way though they aren't the sort of games that Sarkeesian would analyse or that her critics would consider real games being simple point and click hidden object/ puzzle games. The developer I like is Artifex Mundi. All of their games feature female protagonists and what's more, you have to play a female, there are no other options. one storyline has you rescue your fiance, one has you rescue your daughter, and one has you rescue your mentor. They're good for mums to play as you can pick them up from where you left off.

WinifredTheLostDenver · 09/09/2014 17:05

Zazzles and I (and others) are on this thread. I'm not a gamer though so am mostly posting vague but supportive things, more knowledgeable folks welcome!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2171188-Guest-post-Video-games-and-misogyny-should-we-be-worried