School's response to a pupil transitioning female to male making me uncomfortable...

[MoreCrackThanHarlem]

Hi everyone.
Long time MN'er, and although I haven't posted in this topic before, I am an avid reader and have learned so much from the posters here.

I suppose I am looking for a feminist viewpoint on a situation that has developed at my daughter's school which makes me feel uncomfortable.

A child in my daughter's year at Secondary school has chosen, since Y7, to live as a boy. She was a girl through Primary, a footballing superstar, and was described by many as a 'tomboy', though I dislike the expression myself.

Most of the children in his year have only known him as a boy and are unaware of his past, though there have been many rumours and much gossip about this.

After a few incidents on social media where children have made comments about him actually 'being a girl', he asked to address an assembly to set the record straight.
During this assembly he told the entire year group that he is a boy, has always been a boy, and would like people to stop saying otherwise as it was very upsetting for him.

Since transition he has changed radically, particularly, conforming to social gender stereotypes by having relationships with numerous girls, calling girls 'slags' on FB, and becoming friends with a group of disruptive boys who truant ,drink alcohol and spend lots of time discussing girl's physical assets on FB. Not pleasant.

My daughter's friend has begun a 'relationship' with this boy, and it has gone further than kissing. He has told her he has always been a boy which she believes, and has explained his use of the toilet in the staff office by telling her he has a hormone disorder.

I think school have been complicit in his deceit by allowing him to address the other children during assembly and I worry that my daughter's friend is being prevented from making a fully informed choice with regard to her relationship with him.

I would just like to hear other's thoughts on this, and what, if any, action you would take.

To add, I absolutely support other's choices to live 'as' the opposite sex, though I feel uncomfortable with the idea that he has the right to tell others he has always been a boy, as despite his feelings, this is biologically untrue?

Sorry it's a bit jumbled.

I wonder if people would see it differently if the genders were reversed and their son thought he was dating a girl, who turned out to have a penis.

Something like that could really affect a 13 year old.

I don't think anyone has said it is ok. What people have said is that the op doesn't actually know what is happening. She is guessing. She isn't directly involved in the situation and as such it isn't her situation to resolve. If she isn't careful she could actually make the issue much worse for everyone involved including her own daughter.

I am a Pastoral Manager myself, albeit at Primary level.
I would have no qualms in dealing with bullying on FB if it was brought to my attention. Indeed, I have done so in the past. At the very least, Pastoral Leaders should be informing parents of their children's abuse of Social Media. I am shocked that you would consider that to be outside your remit, Coolas.

The school have involved themselves and the whole year group by holding this assembly without providing further support, information and learning opportunities, instead supporting this boy's statement that he has always been a boy. It has been complicit in removing the right of girls to choose the sex of their physical partner.

I will ignore SGB's rudeness as I posted here to read differing views and am open to all opinions.
Where the rights of children are ignored, however, I will not 'mind my own fucking business'.

Imagine if this had been a male to female trans person, who was in fact physically a boy, behaving in a deceitful way and engaging in sexual relations with a lesbian student. I think some posters would see this as far more threatening.

And I do not wish to discuss this child's circumstances with the school. Just their response to it, which does involves my child, her friend, and all the other girls potentially at risk in her year group.

Nope my view would have been the same either way,

Have you ever thought it is people like you who are willing to gossip about it making the situation tougher for him to deal with properly?

I just don't understand this, OP.

Why are you singling this child out? Because he's badly behaved? It sounds from your op like other children are similarly badly behaved. Are you considering going to the school about them?

And you keep saying your DD's friend is "at risk". From what? An underage relationship that's likely to end badly? Is this a unique situation at their school? Again, you seem to be singling this child out. Isn't it the job of the parents in question to deal with any underage relationship issues? And the teachers to deal with them in sex ed/ pastoral care generally, not with particular reference to this boy. It just seems like you are assuming this boy is somehow a sex-offender-in-waiting and poses a threat/risk to girls around him.

Honestly, I don't get it. And YY to the people who said you have no idea what he has told DD's friend, regardless of what she has said to DD.

OP I am really pleased you are thinking about the welfare of his girlfriend in this situation.

SirChenjin I am not sure what you mean when you refer to gender identity.

Gender identity - from LGBT Youth Scotland's website "A personal feeling of maleness, femaleness, or being somewhere in between is known as Gender Identity". There are lots of other definitions available via the medium of google though

For the first time ever, I find myself agreeing with SGB. This is not your business, yet for some reason (feminist ideology?) you appear to have decided that it is. As others have said, repeatedly, you can raise it with the school but they will not disclose anything more to you, and beyond that, you - and your DD - would do better to leave alone. Your DD has told her friend what she knows, and to harp on and on about it achieves nothing - and FGS don't tell your DD you are going to speak to the school because you can bet your last penny that she will tell her friend.

Hit return to soon.

So - you "do not wish to discuss this child's circumstances with the school, just their response to it"

OK - you raise your concerns about their response, they tell you that this was the response that was agreed in conjunction with the boy, his family and other agencies, and they won't discuss it further. Then what? What will you do then OP??

SirChenjin I am sure you are aware there are several schools of thought when it comes gender identity. Which is why I asked what you meant by it.

I am fully aware of how sensitive this is issue is, I am also aware of the negative impact of being in a relationship which is predicted on lies and deceit.

CPS have been successful in geting convictions against women who have withheld their biological sex.

Justine McNally

Gemma Barker

FWIW, These were cases (and the judge called one of them "extraordinary") where consent was obtained through fraud. There isn't any indication that either of the perpetrators was transgendered - they posed as male in order to trick the victims into sex.

The OP doesn't have any actual knowledge that DD's friend is having a sexual relationship with the boy in question or that the boy hasn't been honest with DD's friend. I absolutely agree that teenagers should be safeguarded and appropriately advised about sex but I honestly don't think the OP has any more grounds to involve herself in this case than she would if the boy in question wasn't trans. Unless, the OP would go running to the school every time her DD told her about friends who were having sex or considering it, she shouldn't do it this time.

And hopefully that explains what I meant by it.

The links are most interesting, but as none of us know what's going on in this case we cannot make comparisons.

The only way this holds water, is if the OP knows that the boy in question has female genitalia. And that, to my mind, would be more of a concern than anything else.

Exactly Tonde.

Far too much conjecture and speculation on the part of the OP under the guise of feminist concern.

At the very least the girl is going to need a much more detailed lesson in sexual health than the standard school version... And yes of course she deserves to know too.

I am continually amazed at how determined some people are to put the rights of trans people to say and do whatever they like over and above everyone else at all times. The girl has rights too and asking the school to make sure she knows in a sensitive manner is much more likely to end in the pair of them having a decent respectful relationship than pretending that there's nothing at all unusual about their relationship.

"I am continually amazed at how determined some people are to put the rights of trans people to say and do whatever they like over and above everyone else at all times."

Yeah, those damn trans people are above the law. They just say and do whatever they like.

Nothing like a bit of massive over-statement...

This girl has the right to be properly parented and to be educated and protected at school just like any other girl her age. The OP does not have the right to involve herself on the basis of rumours.

'Can you imagine otherwise? We would be called the police.'

No, you wouldn't be. Anyone who was in a workplace, or a student in a university, could well be disciplined by their employer or academic institution if they were online outside of working hours discussing the physical attributes of colleagues or other students and referring to them as slags etc. Most people are aware of this and numerous people have been sacked for it. It does not make employers or education institutions the police.

And there was a case at my dd's former primary school where the head teacher did not report concerns a parent had raised about another child's actions to the police, but instead told the parents they could do so, and the LEA had to investigate the head's behaviour as a consequence.

It is no wonder that there are so many cases like the recent ones of internet abuse, where adults end up being arrested, if not all schools are making it clear to pupils that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable and is sometimes illegal and the school will take action when it is brought to their attention.

Cabbage this person does self identity as trans* and although the judge was sensitive to this still convicted them.

They way understood the cases were that lying about your biological sex was the basis of the conviction. If I misunderstood I am happy to be corrected.

You can take it as an overstatement if you like - but I have seen it so often now. I know people are trying to be supportive because it must be incredibly difficult to feel so out of place with your body, but that doesn't mean that acting as though the trans person is the same as someone born that gender is always the right thing to do.

OP sounds quite well placed to have a quick word we the school so that they are aware of what is going on, I don't think that is meddling.

By all means have a chat with the school - no-one has said otherwise - but once she has raised concerns (in confidence, without informing her own DD or other parents that she has spoken to school) she needs to back off big time and accept that its a confidential matter.

Actually the judgment in McNally said the "depending on circumstances, deception as to gender can vitiate consent". The judges were careful not to be too broad about it. And my point is neither we nor the OP actually know the circumstances.

In any case, that that misses the point - if this girl is under 16 she cannot legally consent, whether she knows all the facts or not. She (and her schoolmates) need to be appropriately educated regarding sex. This does not mean "outing" the boy in question "just in case" one of the girls gets involved with him.

It is, of course a sensitive situation, and if OP is worried about sexual behaviour among her DD and her friends in general then she can (and should) go and speak to the school about it. I just object to this boy being treated as a threat purely because he is trans.

Actually I should have said "Neither we nor the OP actually know the circumstances or whether there has in fact been any deception as to gender."