Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

It's ok penguins, DS2 slept in 20 minute bursts for his first 2 years and didn't sleep through until he was 8. You're not alone!

And thank god for co-sleeping and baby wearing. Or I'd never have had a single moment doing anything other than feeding or amusing him in any given 24 hour period.

I'm pretty sure my MiL has just swallowed the patriarchal line whole. Her way round the fact that she is a woman, in that she's not a real woman, she's more like a man really. Always got on with men - women are frightful bitches - even her hands are manly, so she's not a real woman. Literally she can not commute that if her hands do not fit into a societal ideal of femininity , the fault is with the ideal not the shape of her hands. She is a sad figure in this respect. Also, she's very desperately worried about having her son's approval, hence the mad lies about what she did say, in front of witnesses, about DD. I felt sorry for her so worked to resolve it between me and her without forcing DP to acknowledge his mum was lying and sexist, or getting DP involved, really. He was so relieved it was resolved that he actually didn't want to know what she said, I have the feeling he'd have to revise his whole opinion on her. And why would I want to do that? He's got a narrative about his mum that is precious to him, it's the basis of his respect for her. My experience of her may be different but I don't want to take his mum off him - or him off her, he's her only son and she was a LP. I think I've made it clear to her that so long as she doesn't pull this shit on my children then she can carry on in her sad little way. So why do I still boil about it all? Every time DD smiles at her I want to snatch her away and tell MiL that she doesn't deserve any kind of relationship with her.

Oh, I've been an absolute disappointment to my mother as a woman...I had several boyfriends (therefore not being "pure" enough), then I married late, and then I failed to provide her with grandchildren. I confront my husband and am argumentative, and I don't bow to my brother's every wish as I should, because you know, men.

Just popping in so this doesn't fall off my TIO.

capt, sounds as if you had a grim few days. My sympathy.

outs - oh, how annoying! It does sound sad for you, but also incredibly difficult. Of course you're going to get angry about it. I suppose at least she knows what she said was not ok, if she's bothering to lie about it.

Being an old dear who clucks over newborns in shops - this is definitely a legitimate role! I was absolutely love-bombed by old dears when I had newborns and I took mental notes because it really propped me up and I want to do the same for some new mothers one day. "What a beautiful baby" they said, apparently sincerely (I thought so, but I knew I was the only one as she was covered in spots.) "You are doing well, she is really filling out!" no comment on my own personal fatness. And so on.

I also found it really sweet to be mobbed by very sweet, apparently rough looking teenagers (of both sexes) at school kicking out time, if I happened to be out with the pram. "Look!" they cooed to each other "this one's really little!" and they stood in admiring ranks. Then I remembered that society deems it a Bad Thing that teenagers like babies. Tragic. They should all be given them to borrow, like in my day when neighbours' teenagers pushed my little brother's pram about for hours. Yes I am ancient and harking back to the Old Days.

So sorry to those who are struggling with difficult family stuff.

"Tell me some secret sentence thAt will unlock me from fury?"

Oh god that is an absolute philosopher's stone of a question.

When dd was tiny I remember a male student seeing her and stopping dead in his tracks to coo and say how much he wanted one. It was so against the normal stereotype of how men that age behave that I didn't know what to say. I know how horribly sexist it was but I was just thinking that in a Sat eve in the centre if Cambridge a scruffy male student type should be heading for the pub not gazing adoringly at dd (though she was astoundingly beautiful, of course).

I like clucking over newborns too.

I'm afraid I'm doing family woes too. They've been really awful over me getting divorced - no 'oh, it's for the best' type cheering-up comments, just insistence that it's terribly sad (for them!). They blamed it all on me getting a new job. They initially assumed that I must have put DH's nose out of joint by announcing I'd taken the job and told me I should have announced it differently, or made more compromises about it - it's mad, because they have heard me and DH talk about job options for the past year and they know he had been hoping along with me that I'd get a job like this and was happy about it. When I explained it wasn't that, and that I was a bit hurt by it, they told me I needed counselling and decided I must be mentally unstable. I've not spoken to them in over a month and it just keeps hitting me that they really see me like this.

I'm just so fed up with it. I knew my dad could be a bit of an old sexist, but I had no idea he'd be this bad. Because by his logic, he assumes my DH is leaving me because I had the temerity to get a job that wouldn't fit perfectly around DH's job - and he assumes that this is my fault really. I feel daft for feeling lonely for them, because they did constantly run me down, but it's quite strange not talking to them, too.

Aw, kickass, that's so cute.

LRD that's crap, poor you

I'm just feeling sorry for myself really. I should go find someone else's baby to coo over.

LRD, that sounds really hard. It is quite reasonable to miss them, even if they weren't much use to you, especially as you don't have exH now either. They should be rallying round, and building you up - surely even the most dark ages parent should realise that! (I was surprised to find that about my parents, who are not usually my biggest fans - that when I was upset during a pretty serious tiff with DP, they wanted us to be together but they thought it most important that I was ok)

And the "mentally unstable". Just GRRRRR. I don't get that from my parents but I get that from DP. Everything comes down to me being a bit nuts. NO SOMETIMES IT IS ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING - perhaps even things YOU are doing!

Gosh, sorry to hear everyone is putting up with so much family shit.

LRD- Sorry to hear that they aren't being supportive. We'll do our best. You could borrow DS, but I think we are a bit far away.

BecauseIsaidso - I am a great disappointment to my MIL despite having met DH at 20, married, having 3 kids and currently not working. I guess what I'm trying to say is that some people seem to find it awfully easy to be disappointed. The ones of who find it awfully easy to be pleased for you seem to have a nicer life.

Chaos - He is slung currently, whilst my big girls do colourful volcanoes in the kitchen. We are about to move onto secret lemon writing (after we all spent the morning slumped in front of various computers!).

On which note, my obsessive computer watching has paid off and I've got my Margaret Atwood ticket. Going to be a total fan girl!

i'm so sorry LRD. protect yourself from attitudes like this, that's all you can do. such a shame they're coming from your own parents, though

I'd borrow DS like a shot, penguins, but you wouldn't thank me as I'd hand him back sharpish for the difficult bits.

And I must shut up now or annie willl be onto me. I am so jealous of the Margaret Atwood - when is it?

vezzie - grr at your DH. I am really shocked at my dad, TBH. He said it in response to me saying I was upset at the lack of support about the divorce and the job, and I think he just hit out with whatever tactic came to hand, really. It's unpleasant, though, because he knows I have depression, so it's a low blow. To be fair to DH, though, he's being extremely good about it and has always had the measure of my parents, so I'm in the slightly odd situation where he's trying to cheer me up about them, rather than them trying to cheer me up about him.

Thanks, petula.

I hope it's ok that I had a moan in here. It does help!

LRD

Hi all. I haven't been able to post all weekend because the new MN mobile site appears to not let me post on my phone. It just hangs and does sweet FA every time I press the post button. Joys.

So thank you trevortrevor for the more detailed explanation of the roots of mini-wife and how, in fact it is being used incorrectly! There's a surprise. Something co-opted to bash women with!

Loving the talk about newborns! With my first I loved that stage. With my second I hated it. I barely remember my maternity leave with him. It was a mass of sleeplessness and wriggling and never being able to put him down. At all. And he hated the pram and the car seat so he was permanently attached to me in a sling. And would only put up with that if I was moving constantly. Not a time I want to go back to! He was crawling by 6 months and fully walking by 9. Normally that is the stage when it starts getting trickier. For me, it was a total relief and soooo much easier. He was happier, I was happier!

I also have family issues. I had a screaming row with my Dad at the weekend. It wasn't pretty. We aren't speaking and I don't know when we ever will be. Basically, the world revolves around him and what he wants. Always has done. I've just called him on it. In an incoherent rage!

Thank you.

scallops - eek, that's not great!

Did he at all concede that he does this? I think I remember you mentioning it before (excuse me if i'm wrong).

So sorry LRD about your parents . It's shit that they aren't supporting you and so disappointing for you. Here's a virtual ((((hug)))) for you and everyone else dealing with obtuse and obstructive relatives!

Thanks! And one for you too.

LRD - Did he hell concede that he was even a little bit in the wrong! He has basically installed his ex-girlfriend in the house without any thought to how either me or my brother would react to this and we were both visiting this weekend. We were under the impression she would be staying elsewhere for the weekend. He wasn't even going to tell us she was back on the scene until my Mum intervened and demanded we be told.

He didn't tell my brother she would be sleeping in the house before he arrived to stay. My brother has real (justified) issues with her and was expected to play happy families. To be honest we all have real issues with her because of how she treated my Dad. I was staying at my mum's, thank fuck, and just had to visit. But then girlfriend stomped off saying she wasn't made to feel welcome and would have to go back to her abusive boyfriend because she had nowhere else to stay. And my Dad blamed us. I felt manipulated and screamed this at him told him so. It wasn't my finest hour!

Sorry about the rant!

Crikey. Good for your mum for telling you. It's really not on for him to push you into siding against your brother (it sounds as if that is what he was hoping for).