Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

thanks for the encouragement!

sadly it is not increased money or responsibility, i just thought it looked interesting and i loathe my current job!

Good luck petula!

You know how, in the good old days, children vanished on school holidays with their mates and you don't see them till tea time? How do we know they didn't all bugger off to bug one of their mates' parents? I'm telling you ... Grrr and double Grrr.

Bah humbug. The good old days are overrated. They should just socialise via minecraft and leave me alone.

Oh well done son of Chaos! What good news! Really cheery .

I had a meeting today at work which was one of those where you wish you'd never started. I lifted up a stone and now wish I hadn't. Problem being that now we know about it we've got to do something about! And that's quite a lot of work, in an already packed schedule! And it's all to do with security and business continuity and of course finance

And then I come on MN and find out that mini-wife is an actual phrase. That people use. To describe girls. Of course. The patriarchy has a fuck load to answer for. Including why I can't watch something on Demand 5. Of course.

And good luck Petula!

Good luck Petula, all sounds intriguing.

why men pay for sex - bbc article

scallops I see "mini-wife" mentioned quite a bit on the stepparenting boards but it is mainly used in that context as a shorthand for DSDs who have been put into the position of confidante and constant companion by their dads, following a divorce.

It seems to be a horribly sad phenomenon whereby the child is not allowed to get on with being a child, but kind of ends up plugging an emotional gap for the parent.

On occasion stepmothers do post blaming that behaviour on the child but, almost without fail, they are put straight by others putting the responsibility squarely back on the dad.

(Just wanted to point out that the places I've seen "mini-wife" used are not discussions where rational posters blame a child/daughter for taking on this spousal role). (If spousal is even a word).

Luckily my DSC aren't in this situation not my Nigel

I've not heard of the term mini-wife until yesterday!

Petula More interesting is an excellent reason to go for a job. Sometimes I yearn for a more mechanical/automatic job but I think on the whole I prefer interesting.

Sorry - have just seen that massive thread in Active Convos about mini-wife. Please ignore my stepparent-splaining above!

not splaining trev, i haven't seen the massive thread and if it's really long then your concise summary is very helpful!

it sounds similar to (but more sad/damaging than) the sort of mini-mum thing i experienced when i was living at home. i only have brothers so if mum was out i became "default female" to whom all domestic tasks and decisions were deferred. not by mum i hasten to add - by the males in the house. i wised up eventually and put my foot down

but this didn't have the emotional component that you describe, so not really the same at all

Well I think it is the same kind of thing - adult responsibilities being put on a child.. well done for putting your foot down in the end!

Adding my congrats to Capt's" DS exam success and good luck to Petula's* job interview.

Never heard of mini-wife before - about to spend a frutiless half hour worrying that I may have leant on DD emotionally too much when I was divorced. Tried not to, don't think I did but..............worry, worry.......maybe I made her my mini-wife?? Hope not.

Also, talking of exam successes and DD, does anyone remember my thread from May/June when she thought she had mucked up her AS History exam and then was hit by the old man on the bus when she wouldn't give up her seat blah blah.....? Well, she got a C - so all not lost. Plus she got an A in Theology Ok proud Mum moment over

rosa having glanced at the mini-wife thread it looks as though it might apply specifically to father-daughter relationships, so you might be in the clear! the fact you worried about it suggests you almost certainly didn't lean on her too much

and bravo to your dd! i don't remember your thread about the old man hitting her (WTF??!) but hopefully the memory of that unpleasant day is no longer raw

rosabud, I dimly remember that thread - people were saying archaic stuff about being "cheeky" iirc. Well done to your dd!

It is tricky with clever, helpful little girls not to load too much on them. the thing is, they want to help, and they are flattered and honoured to be thought of in that way. my dd1 very much likes to be thought of as "big" and this makes it far too easy to expect her to be responsible for things. I actually think that it is good for her to know that I trust and respect her, but sometimes when I find myself asking her to manage dd2's behaviour (in very minor ways in extremis) I think "line crossed!" and "would I ask that of a boy?"

Nice problem to have!

you make a good point vezzie. though do you have sons? it makes it trickier if you can't actually demonstrate that you are asking a boy to do the same things!

i can remember also being aware that if i didn't take on the jobs, it would mean more for my mum to do when she got home

If anyone's interested.. it doesn't just apply to girls.

I think the main issue is the name of the term "mini-wife syndrome" which seems child/daughter-blaming, and is not the actual proper name for the phenomenon (the term is "Spousification" and is apparently a defined therapeutic term).

And, it's a description of a dynamic within a family - not a diagnosis of something wrong with a child.

Brdgrl on the SP boards put a good thread on here if anyone wants any further reading.

Anywayyyy. Happy Friday and enjoy the weekend.. anyone up to much?

Sorry didn't read the last 2 posts - the helping around the home thing I think is specific to girls. The emotional needs thing, not.

Thanks Trevor, I definitely know someone (now an adult) who is permanently damaged by spousification by his mother. Weird "man of the house" shit for a 10 year old, etc. She was lonely.

Petula, I have no sons. I was brought up in a household of two opposite sex parents, a big sister and a little brother and the males NEVER HAD TO DO ANYTHING! I have this weird confusion where I am treating my small girls (5 and 3) similarly to the way I was treated, because actually I have found it useful in many ways all my life to have internalised knowing how to look after myself and my home, and knowing that it has to be done, in real time, and kept on top of; and doubting myself, because I also resented it, because this meant I was always doing it on behalf of everyone around me too, especially males. I have always known that I am spending incrementally huge amounts of time every day on taking care of shit that makes the place nice for everyone - and yet for the life of me, I cannot stop doing it, or teaching my girls to do it.

So, at least while teaching them how to lay the table and put washing on etc, they aren't going to be doing it to the advantage of some brother lounging about playing the piano; but I do worry that, because I am female, I am teaching them: this is what females do. And knowing that when they are older they will (still!) meet hundreds of men who have also been taught that: this is what females do. but what is the solution? I don't want them to be hobbled by domestic inadequacy, nor do I want them to grow up treating me like a servant!

emotionally: it's tricky too. I do have low times where I get a lot of comfort from their presence, especially the physical stuff like hugs, but I try to show them that I value it without suggesting that I rely on it. I don't know really.

it's a balance isn't it - i think it's good for children to learn that their parents have feelings, that it's normal to feel sad, angry etc about things and to express that in a healthy way, but of course it has to be without feeling that they aren't solely responsible for others' emotional wellbeing and they shouldn't take on the burden of solving those things (well, where they aren't the ones who have made you sad or angry through their own direct actions iyswim)

i don't have children so i'm not really qualified to comment on this at all, though

No, me neither Petula (none of my own, and I have no kind of mother-role for my DSC).. I guess you just like to think you would do the right thing for the children in that situation - but you'd never know unless you were ever actually put in that position.

Vezzie is your DP a man (if you have one of course)? Do your DD also see him putting the washing on, making the tea etc?

I have two DSs and grew up with 2 brothers. I remember that I helped out a lot more than my brothers did. Though now they seem to do their shares at home. Probably because they are not arseholes. (I like my brothers.)

As for DSs I expect them to do everything around the house - some automatically, such as putting dirty clothes in laundry basket and clearing tables, but some they are to do when asked, like cooking. But "policing" each other is another matter - I never ask DS1 to "look after" DS2... I think that's my job, not his. I do ask them to look out for each other if they are out. But that's what all their friends are told by their parents to do when they play out together. Apart from those neighbourhood ones whose parents I don't know... "Never leave anyone behind or else you are all grounded" is the rule. But I have heard people telling girls to be "the responsible ones". It makes me want to cry.