Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

Sideways - but someone I know from school has just set up a rl feminist group that doesn't believe in defined gender roles

They don't appear to gave taken on the ciswomen language so I'm quite hopeful about having a rl place to share and speak about this things. Much as the pub is lovely!

LRD - part of the reason I have enjoyed this module so much is due to timing and circumstances. I was already keen to read Foucault, Butler etc but needed a bit of hand holding to get me started so was thrilled to be able to do it as part of the course. Studying something like the ethics of care resonated far more as an adult with caring responsibilities than it would have when I were 19.

The key thing was that gender stuff was pretty well integrated into each unit and the flexibility was there with assignments to pursue it if you wished. Eg a unit that discussed the political inclusion/exclusion of animals began with an overview of the progressive political inclusion of different groups over time (women, people of colour etc), referring to Aristotle, Paine, Wollstonecraft etc. It then focussed on animals. For the aassignment my research looked at ecofeminism and whether feminists/civil rights activists ought to condone the objectification/commodification of other living things (fascinating stuff btw!)

The unit on Bodies was excellent, we looked at Connell's Masculinities, Weeks' Sexualities amongst other things so it wasn't just about 'wimmin's stuff'

I'm on hols so don't have any of my files but can perhaps be a bit more specific when I get home

Hi all
I had lunch with a rl friend I would have loved to have discussed a million things with but had to stop because... you know, work. But still! - so excited and energised not to be all alone in my head for once.

Reading a book by bell hooks

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BORC1R8/ref=pe_385721_48721101_TE_M1T1DP

I love that it is about love. It is hard to manage to synthesise love and analysis and critique on a daily basis. It is important to read stuff that reminds us that love is not (just) a con designed to make slaves of us but also something joyful and transcendent of all this shit. We love men really, but they don't get it (mostly) and we have to pretend we are on the same side (even when they are working against us) and it is nice to read something honest but loving and compassionate about all our shortcomings in this mess.

I am working on not feeling guilty. I am working on taking what I need and not worrying about it. (not worrying about eating; not worrying about low level skiving at work; not worrying about keeping my girls up a little too late just because I haven't seen them all day and we like to see each other; the truth is I will do all these things anyway, so why not just do them and not worry about them? Who gains by the worrying?)
Thinking about this not just for me, but because I am the machine that delivers the world to my daughters and the feelings I bring into this house are the feelings that they have to live with and that, kind of, eventually, will create who they are. Thinking about the energy that I want to bring into the house and run through them.

Sorry about all this self indulgent stuff which is not very thoughtfully feministy but I just wanted to make some notes about what I am trying to do, get some stuff out there and make sure I don't forget or give up

anyway it's definitely my round after all that. What's everyone's poison?

Hello. Newbie here.. I got fascinated by the TERF thing that kept appearing on twitter and its made me think about things. I'd much rather think about other things (or not think about things at all) but its just this whole trans weird topic has pinched my slumbering inner feminist and demanded it wake up.

So I'm reading you all and might be throwing out some verbal mind-whack, to see what sticks (so to speak).

Hi Uri!

Zennor, your course sounds great. Do you get to choose what to write essays on and if so what have you chosen? (if you don't mind me asking)

YY, it sounds an amazing course. And thanks for explaining, zen. Please don't worry about more - I wasn't trying to make work for you, just curious how it was set up.

vezzie - I really need to read bell hooks!

I love that bit you said about working on not feeling guilty.

Hi Vezzie you had to write an essay for each unit, the essay titles were quite broad but instructed you to refer to, say, at least two or three relevent theorists from the unit (and for some, at least two case studies included in the unit). You could then add material from external articles etc. The course is called Living Political Ideas so the emphasis is very much on how theory is 'alive' in modern discourse, political practice etc

I wrote about: 1) whether the end of the Cold War signified the End of History 2) comparing theories of representative and participatory democracy 3) The extent to which the boundaries of the 'political' can be contested to include animals 4) The extent to which religious doctrines challenge liberal politics, using a case study on US pro-lifers 5) whether ideas of 'the natural' explain entry to/exclusion from politics - i discussed same-sex marriage 6) Explaining violence in two case studies: Yugoslavia and Algerian independence

I did a lot of extra reading though and was fortunate to have a kind and lovely tutor who was happy to answer questions ans feed me articles

Sounds really interesting. Thank you for such a comprehensive answer!

Ha no worries, any excuse to talk about it really! Plus i'm on hols, its been pissing down and the kids are driving me potty, its good to think about something more pleasurable

it sounds absolutely fascinating

i honestly think if i had enough money to live on for the rest of my life i would be a perpetual student, covering all sorts of different subjects that interested me, like an enlightenment gentleman

Me too Petula. To find out things and figure out how things work and how it is done.

I agree. It's such an awful shame that the OU have increased fees so much - it was £700 ish per module, now it costs £2600 (and a degree requires 6 modules). I was lucky to start in 2011 so am still on the old fee structure, but only for the modules that count towards my degree. There's so much I would like to learn!

I met a chap at a tutorial who was on his 28th OU module! He wasn't too bothered about having a degree, just wanted to keep on learning.

28th wow!

Vezzie I'm working on not worrying about stuff too. Today I am not worrying about the housework not having been done, because i've hada lovely day with dd2, and I will do some housework tomorrow, or not, as the mood takes me. The thing I'm finding hardest not to worry about is eating, it's so ingrained that I should be eating healthy meals that I feel really, really guilty whenever I eat chocolate, cake, biscuits, etc, even though I'm doing it anyway and the guilt serves no purpose whatsoever.

I'd love to be an eternal student too. I loved studying, loved school, I was one of those kids who found it really hard to choose options for GCSE and A level because I enjoyed it all except PE and Art

Oh dear, I think I'm about to get kicked out of my grumbly corner of the pub, because I would HATE to be an eternal student. I have far too big an internal voice shouting "BOLLOCKS!" so although I'm very interested in lots of things, I can't be doing with very academic/philosophical stuff. It gives me a reaction similar to looking at a blank tax return - horrible brain freeze and a powerful escape drive!

This for example (sorry ZC, nothing to do with you! just caught my eye): "a unit that discussed the political inclusion/exclusion of animals began with an overview of the progressive political inclusion of different groups over time (women, people of colour etc), referring to Aristotle, Paine, Wollstonecraft etc." I mean OMG the political exclusion of animals - how do you suggest we get them involved? Also it smacks of comparing political engagement with lambs to the not-before-bloody-time extension of the suffrage to actual cogent aware people other than rich blokes. And I find it hard to look on the "progressive political inclusion" of different groups, because it's been far from a one-way street, and (as the small print says) the value of your democratic rights can go down as well as up. In a way I find the academic way of looking at some of these things a bit paralysing - detached and theoretical, as if there isn't a hell of a lot still to be done.

I'm sure it's a fascinating study, but I am probably just a bit too, well, ragey

elephants i think that's entirely reasonable

i think the activism and the academic side can complement each other. naturally there will be people more comfortable with the one than the other. and most academics would agree that the "BOLLOCKS!" response is a useful one in discussions too, though you might find that yet more irritating

when i say perpetual study, i don't just mean political/philosophical (though i would find that fascinating and would want to include that), i would also want to study more sciences, maths, history in various contexts, literature, art, biological sciences, geology, learn more languages and linguistics and so on

given that this is a fantasy situation where all my living expenses are covered, i would hope i would also have plenty of time for activism, campaigning, charity work etc (and knitting)

well, perhaps not most academics. some academics, in some contexts, would find the "BOLLOCKS" response something worth discussing too

What's NAAALT?!

Good point about children Buffy. I can't believe we still don't have votes at 16 in this country. I would probably lower it to 14 or 15 if we had a decent system of education so that when children hear the news they actually have some context in which to understand it.

Not All Academics Are Like That

Buffy