"Women against feminism" WTF?!!

[Desperate2012]

Really. Just heard about this as a "thing". Honestly, like there aren't enough important issues out there some women feel their biggest battle is AGAINST feminism. Lets just shoot ourselves in the foot then. Gaaaah!!! Had to get that off my chest

I think we need to focus on bigger issues rather than our 21st century problems. I'm particularly happy with the work being done regarding FGM and women's rights to free contraception in the US.

After doing reading, I consider myself a feminist - but I don't like that some feminists are criticising women for taking their husband's surnames, or not working, or dressing their daughters in pink. And I can see why some women wouldn't want to be associated with that, and would go as far as to declare themselves against feminism.

Surely it's all about choice? I choose to dress my daughter in pink; not because she's a girl, but because I like the colour. I'll take my partner's surname when we marry because I prefer his to mine. Feminism should be concerned with making sure women know that it's a choice - not denigrating them for choosing to take their husband's surname.

But why do so many people dress their girls in pink but not their boys Moomin? Would you dress your boys in pink and dresses?

A by product of feminism is choice. But feminism has always been about freedom from oppression.

Since when has male intimidation of women been a 21st century problem Morphine?

But morphine, plenty of people are capable of doing both.

It's extremely easy to say 'I'm a feminist and happy with work being done on FGM'. If you'd like, I'm sure we could all sit around agreeing that it's terribly important and great stuff, and maybe donating the odd bit of money and patting ourselves on the back.

I don't think that's great, TBH.

At the other extreme, we could all quit our jobs and leave our families and go and physically restrain people from performing FGM.

That might sound terribly heroic, but most of us do not have the skills or training to do this (or even to work in more practical, less dramatic ways to help women in danger of this to learn how to get out, or to change societies). We might even be actively a hindrance.

I think it's better to accept there are lots of issues, and we don't have to choose just one or two to care about.

It's extremely easy to say 'I'm a feminist and happy with work being done on FGM'. If you'd like, I'm sure we could all sit around agreeing that it's terribly important and great stuff, and maybe donating the odd bit of money and patting ourselves on the back

So basically anything us armchair feminists - as I think this is sort of what you're saying - have nothing really to be happy about in terms of what we support?

"Well, I am middle class and come from a long line of middle class people. One of the advantages of being middle class is that you have the time and the energy and the spare emotion and sometimes money to campaign on other people's behalf.

I actually feel ill."

Sorry about that. But I'm not going to put on a mockney accent and pretend to be what I'm not.

"I choose to dress my daughter in pink; not because she's a girl, but because I like the colour. I'll take my partner's surname when we marry because I prefer his to mine. Feminism should be concerned with making sure women know that it's a choice - not denigrating them for choosing to take their husband's surname."

The point here is that just because a woman makes a choice doesn't make it a feminist choice. And people need to be aware of the impact that their decisions make on other people.

Out of interest, do you dress your sons in pink too?

Since when has male intimidation of women been a 21st century problem Morphine?

When did women stop being able to stand up for themselves? It might just be my generation, or maybe even where I've been brought up, but cat calling gets a swift 'fuck off' and done's done - just as I'd do if a woman called me names in the street (which incidentally I used to get more of). I'm not saying women should have to stand up for themselves before you touch upon that, but instead of moaning online that someone has called you 'fit arse', have a comeback and shut the idiot up.

On another note, from what I've experienced both sexes are just as bad for cat calling now, maybe times are changing.

scallops Yep. Dresses have been a godsend this summer for DD, I'd have dressed a boy in them too! And today DD wore a green hoody and blue trousers, and spent most of her first couple of weeks in a Batman onesie and Wales rugby babygro. I don't select clothes based on their 'gender', I pick them based on what's practical and cute. It just so happens that I love the colour pink.

morph - no, I'm saying we're all liable to be 'armchair feminists' in one way or another. Picking out examples of really important causes that many women in the UK are not in a position to support in more than a nominal or minor financial way, and saying these should be the only focus of feminism, seems to me likely to waste women's time and energy.

I'm not advocating that those of us who want to eradicate FGM (which surely is all of us?!) shouldn't get up and do something about it. It's just, realistically, how many of us really can? Are we qualified in any way?

Given for lots of us the answer is that we can't do much even if we want to, I see nothing wrong in supporting people who can help, but also having other causes to think about.

And 'smile love' makes me want to punch someones lights out, which is why I answered 'I would if men like you didn't piss me off'. To which they usually stumble off muttering under their idiotic breaths.

I am from a sink estate and we never called it anything else. How is 'rough council estate' any more palatable, ffs? It's like fat people calling themselves 'curvy'. Dress it up however you like, these estates exist and no-one who lives there gives a toss about your patronising attempts to paint a more decorous picture of their circumstances.

Hak I don't have sons but have explained in my last post :)

But why should my choices be feminist? What makes a feminist choice? Dressing my daughter in trousers, even though the weather makes it impractical?

LRD Ah I understand what you're saying LRD

I think with the catcalling thing, it might be because I see women as myself, and I see how I deal with things and I wish more women could feel able to do as I do. I know that's a terribly narrow-minded and linear way to think but I think we have some responsibility to ourselves to make an individual choice to stand up to it, rather than come online and collectively bemoan it without actually making much difference.

2 LRD's there. They look like bookends to my sentence

Really Moomin? You'd put your son in the same pink dresses as your DD in a similar pattern of regularity? All power to you (and your sons)! That's impressive!

Oh, I see what you mean, too.

I agree it would be good if more women did make the choice to stand up to it, but I have to say I think bemoaning on line has its purpose too. I'm a massive whinger. I eventually get my finger out and do things, but I am wordy and I feel better to talk things out first.

I do think there's a point at which talking becomes an end in itself, and that's not so good. I think that's a problem with parts of the third wave, that people get very keen on using fancy terms and 'deconstructing' their experiences without perhaps thinking about practical results.

Ahh x-post. If you had a son then you'd dress him the same way you'd dress your DD?

Happy to be a feminist bookend.

See, I think the Everyday Sexism book is good in this respect.

Sure, lots of it is about women sharing experiences.

But then it also has actual things you can say in response. You can read them book and store up all the comebacks, and then you have the headspace free never to worry about what to say in that situation again.

Sure, it's not getting rid of FGM or eradicating rape, but in a quiet way, it's very useful.

but I have to say I think bemoaning on line has its purpose too. I'm a massive whinger. I eventually get my finger out and do things, but I am wordy and I feel better to talk things out first

Oh you're not alone there as I'm sure you'll find out as I post more...

Your last point is spot on. I see people talking about feminism, using all these fancy terms and talking about sociological influences and dismantling the oppressive patriarchy etc etc, and I feel like asking: but are you doing anything about it?

Having a good comeback is massively empowering in my eyes. I actively think of them when walking down the street when I see someone I just know is going to say something.

Yes, it really is!

Conscious-raising and sharing has always been massively important in feminism. It has helped join the dots and recognise patterns even if it's on an individual level. So 'whingeing' does serve a purpose.

Yep - it's rare that DD does wear dresses, her legs get chilly so she's usually in trousers or leggings. My brother was born in November so IIRC he spent most of his first six months in cable-knit leggings but if it was hot enough that we'd have put DD in a dress, it'd be hot enough for us to put a hypothetical DS in a dress.

"But why should my choices be feminist? What makes a feminist choice? Dressing my daughter in trousers, even though the weather makes it impractical?"

No of course not A feminist choice is one that doesn't contribute to making things worse for other women. So, a woman could choose to be a "surrendered wife" for example, but the role model she would be giving her children and the image of women she would be giving to other people would not be in the best interests of other women and would perpetuate stereotyping myths. So it would be a choice made by a woman, but not a feminist one. And the "feminist choice" about your dd's clothes would be to encourage her to wear clothes that are appropriate for whatever she's doing, and which make it possible for her to fling herself wholeheartedly into whatever it is she's doing. And not say, as my dd said to me when she was 7 "I love doing judo, but I don't want to do it any more because it makes me look sweaty and ugly"