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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New campaign to allow partners to stay on maternity wards.

282 replies

MrsCakesPremonition · 10/07/2014 13:56

MN have started a thread about possibly supporting a new campaign to allow partners to stay overnight on maternity wards.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/a2129215-What-do-you-think-about-spouses-partners-staying-overnight-on-postnatal-wards?msgid=48200610#48200610

I feel very uncomfortable about this for lots of practical reasons, but also partly because it feels like another safe space for women being sacrificed for the convenience of men. However, I'm aware that I may be underplaying women's right to have whatever support they want.
Is this a feminist issue and how are the rights of one group of women (to feel safe) balanced against another group of women (to have the support they want)?

OP posts:
Knackeredmum13 · 10/07/2014 19:40

I'm really torn on this issue .
When I had my EMCS I would have loved my DH to have stayed with me. I hadn't slept in days and was finding movement difficult. Baby DS screamed if I put him down and I had no idea what to do. I was terrified I'd fall asleep and smother him. None of the staff came to my aid and I didn't like to ring the bell as I was worried they'd be annoyed by me. I felt very alone.

On the other hand I found the general visiting hours too long and the rules too lax. The DH of the woman next to me came in first thing every morning with two small children who ran around until 6pm. They kept bashing into DS's cot despite our numerous requests for them to calm down. Another woman on the ward had around ten people around her bed at one point. They even brought in McDonalds!!!

It was impossible to sleep and felt very cramped and claustrophobic. I couldn't wait for them all to leave. I'd be worried that if men were allowed to stay overnight that some patients would then try and get their kids staying or their mums too. You could end up with several people around each bed all night. I wouldn't trust this rule to be enforced by hospital staff anymore than they enforce the 2 visitor rule.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 10/07/2014 19:40

"Interesting dilemma send the man home and sideline him thus reinforcing the position women are the primary care for children and should be expected to take charge of all things child related"

This is one or two nights in the life of the baby, where the father has to go home between 10pm and 8am or whatever the "non-allowed" birth partner hours are.

If 16 hours are used as an excuse affect the next 16 years then woe betide us all, frankly.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 10/07/2014 19:41

Scotch, your DH would still be there for the majority of the day during visiting hours

scotchtikidoll · 10/07/2014 19:47

Bill yes, I know, I have had a child. A couple of hours after he was born my OH had to leave.

MissBattleaxe · 10/07/2014 20:35

Well my DH had to leave shortly after the birth too, but since it was midnight and I needed to sleep on a post-op ward, there was no point in him staying. It didn't affect his bond with the baby at all.

I think overnight guests on a bay is a horrible idea.

PetulaGordino · 10/07/2014 20:40

i think few people are denying that (a) it's totally normal to want your partner nearby or that (b) a supportive partner being involved in the overnight care of a newborn is a good thing and a potential bonding experience for all

it's just that this isn't on in the context of a shared ward, nor is it a substitute/solution to understaffing or poor care

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 10/07/2014 20:57

YY to Bill and Petula's posts. This is about the care of the patients - ie. the mother and newborn.

This should not be used as some sort of equal parenting banner. Men don't give birth.

almondcakes · 10/07/2014 21:04

Scotch, it isn't about whether your partners feelings are as valid as yours, it is that your partners feelings are not as valid as those of the other patients on that ward.

They have to be there. Your partner does not.

Your posts do make it sound like a bit of a romance novel TBH. Not all single mothers do wish they were in your position and had the 'choice' of a partner staying. A lot of people legitimately are quite happy to have babies in totally different family structures - single mothers, extended families, surrogates etc.

A closely bonded unit of you, your DP and a baby is something you want. It isn't something hospitals are there to promote or make the norm. Maternity care is provided for the health and well being of mothers.

scotchtikidoll · 10/07/2014 21:12

MissBattleAxe I'm not actually complaining about the fact he didn't get to stay over any more- I was just responding to Bill. My other posts indicate that I've mulled this over and realised that it isn't the best idea to have OH's on the ward after all, even though I needed mine. Other people are to be considered too- what I am going to do next time is save up and get a private room (homebirth medically not an option for me), because it does mean a lot having him there, but obviously not at the expense of other people's dignity and comfort and of course the NHS. I don't support the campaign because it isn't fair on other patients.

scotchtikidoll · 10/07/2014 21:17

almond

What I said was 'I'm now thinking about single mums who would at least be glad to get that choice at all.'

I did not say 'all single mums.'

I've accepted I was thinking selfishly, and that I've learned from experience and reading from the threads, that in future, that because I want my partner there most of the time, then I'll need to pay for it without affecting anybody else.

almondcakes · 10/07/2014 21:21

Scotch, sorry. I didn't mean to be rude.

scotchtikidoll · 10/07/2014 21:27

You weren't, I didn't exactly word what I was saying perfectly. It's really hard not to offend people unless you iron-clad what you say Smile

OldLadyKnowsSomething · 10/07/2014 22:43

What would people think about healthy, non-bf babies being sent home with their father (aiding bonding, lessening the notion that childcare is a "woman thing") while mothers rest in hospital for a day or two? Baby could be brought in during (long) visiting hours, and/or those wanting to meet the new baby could do so in baby's home, reducing stress for women left on the wards.

MissBattleaxe · 10/07/2014 22:51

scotchtikidoll- fair enough. I agree with you.

MissBattleaxe · 10/07/2014 22:54

I don't support the campaign because it isn't fair on other patients. that's the bit I agree with^^

It's not fair on recovering women and the father's rights or desires are not as important as the mothers recovering from birth.

SoonToBeSix · 10/07/2014 22:57

I clicked on this thread thinking on all my time on mumsnet I actually agree with a thread on the feminist board. But sadly no. Those pesky men wouldn't be supporting their partners at all, of course not they would be peeping through the curtains trying to at ogle at another woman's breasts.

PetulaGordino · 10/07/2014 23:03

SoonToBeSix have you read the thread started by MNHQ (linked in the OP)? it's not just on FWR that people have concerns about the campaign

i'm not sure though how you've got the impression from this thread that breast ogling is the only objection anyway Confused

TheDetective · 10/07/2014 23:06

It's a complex issue. But my overwhelming feeling both as a mother and as staff is that it wouldn't work in the current set up of many hospitals. It would only work when the entire ward was single rooms.

I've had too many difficult situations such as men provided with a chair, who have then been found either in the bed with the woman (unacceptable for reasons which include infection control, the woman's comfort and recovery and preventing staff from carrying out their duties by being in a hospital bed!!) or in the bed on their own with women in the chair! Which was just unbelievable! Shock

Men who have been told to remain in the single room have been found wandering around the wards, helping themselves to patients tea/coffee facilities, using bathrooms which are for patient use, going in to wrong rooms, buzzing in and out the door all night going out smoking etc.

I have to say, women having a female companion would be of much more use. Although that still gives the same issues with extra bodies on already over cramped and understaffed wards. 4 beds, 4 cots, 4 extra stayers. That's 12 people in a bay which would house 4 on the general side...

I do think having support is important, but not to the detriment of everyone else. At the moment, desperate underfunding means that this wouldn't be possible in many places without infringing on the rights of other people.

OldLady most mums are fit for discharge fairly soon (within 12 hours) of birth. Most extended stays are due to the baby needing observation or treatment rather than for maternal reasons. So i think your point would be irrelevant in most cases. Even women who have had a c/s can go after 24 hours.

Although it's worrh mentioning that sometimes mums are readmitted with complications. A lot of mums chose to leave their babies at home with Dad unless they are breastfed. So babies can be left at home when mum is on the postnatal ward.

CaptChaos · 10/07/2014 23:06

Because she didn't read it?

SoonToBeSix · 10/07/2014 23:11

I have read the linked thread but only after I clicked on this one. I don't think men looking at breasts is the only issue I was being flippant. I do however think the vast majority of men are safe to be around women.

italksense · 10/07/2014 23:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 10/07/2014 23:25

But many women may not feel safe around the vast majority of men who are strangers to them. Let's face it, we're socialised that way from girlhood. We're told not to go out alone, late at night, to get taxis etc- what is that advice protecting us from? Strange men of course.

1 in 4 women (at least) have been sexually or raped by men - it is not unreasonable to not want them there, right next to you, when you've just given birth.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 10/07/2014 23:27

Italksense, btw, just represents MNHQ failure to deal with trolls on FWR.

CultureSucksDownWords · 10/07/2014 23:28

My stay on the post natal ward was hideous. Made massively worse by thoughtless and selfish visitors during the day. It was a huge relief when all the visitors had to go home. Even though that included my DP. I could cope during visitors hours as my DP could help me out and defend me.

I didn't and don't understand why the staff don't enforce their own rules about numbers of visitors, use of mobile phones, other children, use of the facilities by non-patients etc etc.

When I was moved to the transitional care ward there were 4 bays. During visitors hours one of the other women's partners would arrive, plonk himself at the shared table area in front of the TV and just sit there, for hours. He would be looking around and just there all the time. Didn't seem to be interested in his partner or the baby and certainly not really helping her. I had to troop past him all the time to use the sink, to go to the loo, to go and wash/sterilise pumping equipment etc etc. I found it really unnerving. My DP would stay in our bay with the curtain mostly drawn and not get in the way of the other women. Again, when the partners
had to go home I felt a great sense of relief. Sometimes it's appropriate for there to be a time and a space that is just a female time/space.

TheDetective · 10/07/2014 23:39

It's extremely difficult and time consuming to enforce sadly. We do try, but people don't like being told no. And the arguments we get just take us away from caring for women and babies.

If there was someone who could go around and do this, great! But there isn't (2 midwives and one support staff if you are lucky to a 20 plus bedded ward). And really, it shouldn't have to be policed! People shouldn't take the mick!

I truly believe that general visiting should be kept to a bare minimum eg. grandparents only. Most are home in a day or two, and visiting can begin in abundance.