New campaign to allow partners to stay on maternity wards.

[MrsCakesPremonition]

MN have started a thread about possibly supporting a new campaign to allow partners to stay overnight on maternity wards.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/a2129215-What-do-you-think-about-spouses-partners-staying-overnight-on-postnatal-wards?msgid=48200610#48200610

I feel very uncomfortable about this for lots of practical reasons, but also partly because it feels like another safe space for women being sacrificed for the convenience of men. However, I'm aware that I may be underplaying women's right to have whatever support they want.
Is this a feminist issue and how are the rights of one group of women (to feel safe) balanced against another group of women (to have the support they want)?

This is why the right to self discharge is a wonderful thing, I hate hospitals I have severe anxiety about them. I don't trust the staff I become quite snippy and sarcastic basically a horrible cow to deal with.

I know in 4/5 weeks time I will have to grace the doors of a dirty NHS mrsa filled hospital full of sick people, needles and overstretched staff, however I will be somewhat eased and spured on by a loving DP.

I need my DP by my side to survive hospital, but I won't do it to the detriment of other women. I just won't stay in the hospital. I don't think I have ever been officially released from hospital I constantly self discharge as soon as I feel I can. Even when I went in to preterm labour, once labor was stalled I had my steroid injections and was no longer in any pain or disco.fort and was happy that baby was fine, I discharged myself, they wanted me there another 24 hours...wasn't going to happen.

So I will do the same after my birth if I think me and more importantly baby are well enough, I'm not staying.I can lay in bed at home not surrounded by staff and strangers and let DP help.

TheDetective, it is really unfortunate that this is the case. I would support a campaign to better fund and staff post natal wards in a heart beat. Anything to help you make your workload easier.

And it's often the case that selfish and thoughtless people are the ones that won't be told by others.

The solution isn't to allow partners to stay overnight in wards where there aren't private rooms with en suite bathrooms.

Fair enough, TheDetective, it's almost 24 years since I last gave birth so am not totally au fait with modern ways. (Even then, I went in Saturday morning to be induced, it failed, labour started "naturally" in the small hours of Sunday, gave birth around breakfast time and went home Monday lunchtime.) It's just that all of these stories of catheters, spinal blocks, women unable to walk or care for their newborn etc made me wonder if it wouldn't be better if the (healthy, non bf) baby went home when the father did, allowing the mother some recovery time and reducing stress in the ward. I totally accept that these may be minority experiences.

When I had ds1, (1987) I was asked if I was going to bf or ff. I had chosen ff; in those days, ff babies were taken to the hospital nursery at night, where they would be fed, changed, cuddled etc, and the new mum got to sleep a bit more. I really appreciated this as we'd both nearly died, I had massive blood loss and no access to transfusion; Edinburgh at the height of the AIDS thing. Still went home after three nights, exhausted.

See I think what is needed is a radical rethink of how maternity centres are set up. I'd much rather see individual rooms for women to birth and recover in so that partners can stay overnight.

I 'll read this properly when I finish my shift. Just to say that it's been going on at my place for a year now do I don't know why it's a campaign? It's not new in London.

Lighthouse keeping are you at kings college hospital?

OldLady, no way would I have wanted anyone (not even my DP) to take my baby away from me whilst I stayed in hospital. It would have greatly distressed me. I was breastfeeding anyway so it wouldn't have been a possibility, but I would have absolutely hated that idea.

When I gave birth to DS2 my ExH insisted on staying. He had also insisted on picking that day to demonstrate to the world that he was a drug addict and disappeared every so often to 'top up'. There was no way I could have said anything and I could see he was making the Midwives uncomfortable, they only ever asked me if I wanted him to stay when he was in the room. It could have ruined my birth experience, but I zoned out and it was fine much better than DS1, but that's another thread

If he had been made to leave, I might have been able to sleep for a while, instead of having a night of no sleep due to him making derogatory comments about my birthing performance, how loose I would now be and other stuff. Luckily we were in a single room, but he would have done the same on a ward.

So, while I understand that for some women, having their DP there all the time would be brilliant and supportive, because of men like my ExH I would have to vote no.

Dd1s father would have loved to stay on the ward. I wouldn't have wanted him to. He wasn't a safe person, not to me and most likely not to the other vulnerable women. Whilst I agree that the vast majority of partners are safe, nice people not all are and even one womans safety being compromised is too much, whether they are the partner or not.
More midwives and patient support is whats needed.

Just catching up on this thread. Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. Some very interesting points made and stories told.

Someone mentioned the idea that the woman and baby are the patients, while the partner is a guest. I think that understanding of the dynamic might be helpful, that the partner has no right to be there overnight, that the invitation to stay is dependent on a number of issues including the woman's wishes, the availability of an appropriate space, the partner's behaviour etc. and that the invitation can withdrawn at any stage if the nursing staff deem it necessary in the interests of the woman, other patients or staff.

But it still requires wards to have enough space, facilities and privacy and for someone (security staff) to be available to ensure everyone's security.

This is making me quite angry actually. As a patient why would I be expected to deal with anyone else? This should be a private space for mothers and babies to recover. It's not a lifestyle moment it's a medical environment and women are entitled to be patients first and foremost while they are recovery. Not beacons of family friendly and male friendly policies. When I'm bleeding and torn and in shock, I should be the focus, and not be put in the position of having to accommodate other people. If even a mat ward can't be all about women, we really are in a bad way.

Weird that soontobesix can't find one thread on the feminism section to get behind.

Hope you've got 6 sons (or maybe I don't)

oldlady think the problem would be is that most women do try and breastfeed at first and if it was actively encouraged that women hand babies over to their fathers this would be undermined even more than it already is. And women could be pressured in to giving up baby to overbearing families before they are ready "so the families can help"

This appears (to me, at least) to have overtones of the same attitude as that guy who sued his ex to force himself to be present at the birth if their child.

Just another thought that occured to me amongst the myriad of others on this subject.
There will most likely be women on the ward who have been victims of rape or sexual assualt. They should not have to disclose what they went through in order to get a private room away from strange men if they do not feel safe.

Really Apocalypse
What sort of dickhead would do that to the mother of his child.

ITA Quangle

Really Apocalypse

What sort of dickhead would do that to the mother of his child.

The sort of dickhead who thinks that his experience of birth is an issue, and who doesn't acknowledge the serious nature of what the woman is doing.

Anyway, here's the charmer's tale:

www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/03/13/fathers_in_the_delivery_room_new_jersey_judge_rules_that_a_mother_can_block.html

There are no words Apocalypse.

I must wonder if his twattiness was the reason for their break up.

Oh, almost inevitably. But what I think is concerning is the attitude that the primacy of women in childbirth can be overridden to allow men to have experiences.

Its like there is no sacred place for women, if they choose not to have a man there they will be sued and made to have him there.

There was also the man who shot and killed himself an hour after his wife have birth last year. In the delivery suite. Didn't link to it as I thought it would just lead "oh but that's America and only happened because they have guns". Not that some men can be massive assholes

As an unrelated aside... did you see this article linked to apocolypse's!?
www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/11/bode_miller_custody_battle_new_york_family_court_made_a_terrible_ruling.single.html

When I had dd2 the (planned) c section went wrong. 8 years of pain later it's resulted in a hysterectomy.

Day 2 the doctor came round and did babies discharge paperwork - she could go home. Perfectly healthy (gorgeous) formula fed baby - second child and DH and 2 grandparents at home.

I was still unable to move, out of my head on morphine and codine with catheter in.

I asked if my DH could take her home and let me recover in peace - get some sleep and concentrate on myself. I didn't feel safe looking after her - I couldn't lift her properly, I was drugged up.

Oh the fuss - I had a psychologist at my bedside in 30 minutes and was monitored for a year as I was "rejecting my baby" - eh no I was thinking my healthy husband - her father - was in a better position to care for her than I was.

Anyway she wasn't allowed to go home with him - so at night i had to pick up a 2 day old by the babygro head dangling to try to feed her, change her nappy (she ended up with nappy rash as I didn't clean her properly) when I couldn't find a nurse to help.
I remember crying my eyes out when no-one came after about 30 minutes of her screaming and me buzzing as we had run out of milk - she drank 3 bottles which was supposed to last all night in the space of about 2 hours. I couldn't walk the length of the ward to get more - I couldn't even sit up properly.

I wasn't safe to care for her. Her father was. Why on earth wasnt he allowed to care for his child.

LOL at the indignant question of whether we think fathers might be violent in the post-partum wards.

a) some fathers have been already

b) if violence is your boundary, it's not high enough.

It's not just potential violence. Already in the course of these threads, I've read about men doing the following:

• making shitty remarks to their partners undermining them and criticising them and making them feel shit at the most vulnerable moment of their lives
• wandering into someone else's bay while they're being examined to ask a question about their partner, with no concept of respecting women's personal boundaries
• demanding a blow job
• demanding the woman get out of bed and into the chair so he can sleep on the bed
• nicking the patient's coffee, tea, breakfast etc.
• talking loudly, disturbing patients
• watching TV, listening to radio etc., loudly, disturbing patients
• staring at women trying to establish breastfeeding, creeping them out
• yelling at HCPs
• assaulting HCP's
• bullying women apart from their partners who have just had babies

You know, when men stop being socialised to be such total nobbers, then I'm sure we'll all feel very comfortable with them on the wards. Until then, there's a by no means comprehensive list of what women just don't want to have to deal with after having had a baby.

It's no use saying NAMALT, because as a woman who has just given birth and is feeling more vulnerable than she has ever felt in her whole life in some cases, you only need one of these tossers to be on your ward, to make that post-partum period even more horrific than the NHS has contrived to make it already. And I just don't see why it's in women's interests to promote that.

AskBasil - I'm going to copy and paste those examples of bad behaviour on MN Campaign thread. I think it's really important that Birthright read that. Hope that's ok with you.