New campaign to allow partners to stay on maternity wards.

[MrsCakesPremonition]

MN have started a thread about possibly supporting a new campaign to allow partners to stay overnight on maternity wards.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/a2129215-What-do-you-think-about-spouses-partners-staying-overnight-on-postnatal-wards?msgid=48200610#48200610

I feel very uncomfortable about this for lots of practical reasons, but also partly because it feels like another safe space for women being sacrificed for the convenience of men. However, I'm aware that I may be underplaying women's right to have whatever support they want.
Is this a feminist issue and how are the rights of one group of women (to feel safe) balanced against another group of women (to have the support they want)?

[dreamingbohemian]

They won't be supporting it because so many people said no. They did seem open to the idea at first.

Sorry, I am still bitter that the postnatal campaign went nowhere. It infuriates me that women are so neglected in this area.

[MissBattleaxe]

I'm dead against the idea. Yes it would have been nice to have had my DH stay over but only if in a private room.

On a ward it would have been a firm and resounding and passionate NO as it would have meant a bay for four patients would have had eight people staying in it and therefore no privacy for me or for the other women on it.

It's not about men being dangerous, it's about needing to feel comfortable whilst you get boobs out of tell the midwife your bowels aren't moving, or that your catheter is uncomfortable or that your bed is sodden with blood.

Do I want to do all that with three unknown non medical men in the room? No, no and no a million times.

It would be letting the desires of some women and men trump the rights of others. The right to recover in peace and privacy, which is an absolute right that must be protected at all costs.

[ChunkyPickle]

Yes, as a second time mother I coped - I would have coped better had DP been there (there was a lot of bullying). I coped because I'd already had a baby, and knew what I was doing, and had an inkling of what would happen if (when) it all hit the fan.

A solution then, that helps some women at least - my hospital had 2 post natal rooms - 1 was c-section/high-needs, 2 were standard. Let women choose. Sure sometimes choices will be forced (as they are no if you don't meet criteria - I wasn't allowed to even pay for a private room as I was post-c-section).

You don't need any more than a chair (which they have anyway, even in my crappy hospital, so I had somewhere to sit and feed). If most women won't have a partner with them for whatever reason then out of the 4 people in my room you'd only have 1 or 2 partners in the room anyhow.

Fine though, don't make it a right, let hospitals choose for themselves. Again in the children's ward there were official visiting hours, rules for numbers of visitors, but they weren't enforced unless someone was being a nuisance. Do that in the post-natal.

Let the market decide - let people choose if they want to be on a ward/in a hospital that lets partners stay or not.

[MissBattleaxe]

But Chunky- what if the only hospital available to them has a loads of Dads staying overnight and its not the patients' choice? It wouldn't be fair.

I found visiting hours very stressful and noisy and all 4 of us mothers on the ward conked out asleep afterwards as soon as they had gone. Imagine that all night. Horrible.

[PetulaGordino]

i have thought of another real concern (apologies if this point has already been made).

a number of women have said they would have loved their partner to be there partly to help get the attention of hcps who were understaffed/unavailable for some reason. let's face it, there are some things that the partners could do to assist (making supportive comments, helping to lift the baby where the mother can't without difficulty etc), but many things where they really can't (breastfeeding advice, concerns and queries, when something has gone wrong and medical attention is needed)

for the latter situation, those with partners staying on the ward can go and seek the hcps. given that as mentioned above there will be plenty of women who can't have a partner in attendance, what will happen to them? if there is a lack of attention from hcps due to understaffing or poor care, this won't change, and they will be at an enormous disadvantage compared to those with a partner with the physical and emotional capability to seek and insist on help

the whole premise is arsewise. it's the poor care and understaffing that needs to be tackled

[JennyOnTheBlocks]

That's the point I was trying to make, Petula

Would I have been left without care because I had no partner there to give it?
Giving better all round care and attention is the key.

[ChunkyPickle]

MissBattleaxe - then if there's only 1 post-natal ward then partners can't stay. I know that given the choice of hospitals which one I would go to though.

Like I said - I escaped fast, but I found it all pretty noisy, whether visitors were there or not - luckily I was exhausted :)

On the childrens ward this was dealt with very well - noisy visitors were shushed, and asked to leave if they didn't. This should happen.

Petula - I disagree about the main reason being to go and ask for help. Even with my perfect first hospital, DP's main purpose was to listen to what was being said and provide a checking system - I was in pain, exhausted, woozy - I was not in any state to pay attention to what I had to do next or what I should do with the baby, or what I should watch for, or to ask intelligent questions about my options. DP was also tired, but at least he had had some sleep previously and wasn't in pain.

Just like taking your union rep into an important meeting, or a trusted person into a medical appointment he was my second pair of ears at a vital and vulnerable time. I don't know what the solution to that is for women without birthing partners - but I don't also think that just because some women are alone that we should all do without support.

[Minnieisthedevilmouse]

Yeah I know it's not easy to save up. I know that my words sound extremely harsh but if you know the birth you want tgen save for it. Like you save for every other priority in your life. It's your priority after all. Your choice. It's not a "right". It's a family choice. The choice for the majority should be simpler but as effective. Done right it is.

[PetulaGordino]

i didn't meant that it was the main reason, just that it had been cited as a reason, particularly by those women who had been on the receiving end of poor care

sorry to labour your point jenny!

[JennyOnTheBlocks]

Not at all Petula

[ChunkyPickle]

Sorry Petula - you're right, however my point still is that even in a properly supportive and lovely hospital, there is definitely a good reason for wanting a partner there.

[TheXxed]

This happened to me and it was FUCKING awful, 8 people sharing one toilet, I felt scared of getting up to use the bathroom.

I felt ashamed about the fact that I was a lone parent, I was acutely aware of the fact that there was a tiny sheet between me and a strange man I didn't know. It was the most vulnerable I have felt since I was raped 6 years ago.

When a nurse was in my bay on the partners walked in to ask if she could see his wife next.

[MissBattleaxe]

It would make me very angry to have three sleeping men on the ward when the priority is for the patient's recovery and the baby's well being.

It's a sad state of affairs that post natal care is so poor that women are feeling a need to bring a relative because nursing staff are either not there or overstretched. NB I am not blaming staff, I am blaming staffing levels.

the answer is very very obvious.

1. More midwives.
   
2. More monitoring of recovering mothers i.e constant rounds of the wards.
   
3. and no partners overnight unless its a private room.

[PetulaGordino]

absolutely, i'm sure there is, but it seems to me that in the current setup, as a blanket policy it wouldn't be a real solution to the problems in postnatal care in the uk, and it would bring a whole host of other problems with it

but i really should bow out now, because i haven't given birth (though plan to in future, so i do have a vested interest at least) and have no personal or professional experience of maternity wards of any relevance, so i'm really overstepping the mark here

[PetulaGordino]

that was in response to chunky

[IdealistAndProudOfIt]

Yes I can understand why people would want their partners there, I also have no other family or social support and had a bad harmorrhage, but you can't have strange men wandering around women can be half naked and in need of invasive help at any moment. I don't really understand why one woman wanting her partner around should trump everybody else's privacy.

The wards may be the problem, in that if everyone had a private room it would not be an issue. Private rooms post childbirth are the norm in Belgium. But can anyone see the NHS getting funded to provide such things? At the moment they are hostile when you ring up to go in, put you off as long as you can be, and get rid of you at the first opportunity. In those circumstances a little women-only space is the least they can do for us.

[ChunkyPickle]

Petula - I should bow out too - I've had my kids and will not be repeating the experience, in fact I didn't realise how strongly I felt about my experiences until I started talking on here and I don't think my emotion is helping.

I still think that people are making problems where there aren't any. I was really not looking forward to the ward after my first experience in private rooms, but it was fine (the other people really were not a serious issue at all - all issues were caused by staff and facilities)

I feel sorry for the mothers being denied their partner's support that I enjoyed the first time though, and I think that a way round could be found to accommodate the majority (whichever experience they want) with a little bit of common sense (which I realise isn't common at all)

[IdealistAndProudOfIt]

ChunkyPickle, the problem with all 'choice' and market solutions is that the people who can make a choice will do so and get the best care and the rest of us get landed with the dregs. Some of us don't have a choice for whatever reason - no money, no private transport, no help. And then our voices are ignored because after all the mantra says you have a choice and have chosen the situation, even when you clearly have not and actually hate it and all the people who've ever contributed to forcing it on you.

[ChunkyPickle]

I didn't have a choice for the second birth, I couldn't have a home birth, I couldn't go to a maternity unit, I couldn't have a private room if I wanted, I couldn't get up or think straight, and I couldn't have anyone I trusted there to support me or my baby - yet I was supposed to make possibly life and death decisions for my baby and me - despite an advocate being available if here were allowed to be there!

But I know it's possible. I've had it all on a national health-service in another country. Admittedly a country with fewer people - but that means less tax, the hospital was actually older - but better managed.

[ditavonteesed]

I am nt going to read the thread as I work on a postnatal ward, I work incredibly hard and find it a bit soul destroying to find out how badly thought of we are.

That is my way of apologising if this has already been said.

It is a terrible idea in multy bedded bays, women are often struggling to come to terms with new motherhood and breastfeeding and bleeding everywhere among the indignities that childbirth offers. It is hard enough for these women without having to worry about other opinions of them. There are cultures in which women are not allowed to uncover their hair in the presence of men other than their husband. Their are issues which women are only able to share with us when their partner is not with them. There are so many reasons it is a bad idea.
Postnatal wards need to be better staffed and women need to be reminded when they are brtought up that they can ask for anything they need, the staff are happy to help with anything and I really mean anything but we can only help if we are asked.
I understand that women are keen to start their family life and that the support of a partner at that time could be invaluable but the reasons against are more to protect the vulnerable which should always win.
In cases where it is needed such as an il baby or twins we often allow partners to stay in side rooms but in the general ward it is too difficult. There are other issues which need addressing first regarding post natal care.

[sausageeggbacon11]

Interesting dilemma send the man home and sideline him thus reinforcing the position women are the primary care for children and should be expected to take charge of all things child related. Or crash one of the few women only spaces.

Personally I would rather not have a man on a shared ward. If you feel you need him then arrange for a private room. I would have killed XH if he had of stayed on the ward after the birth of DD.

[ThinkIveBeenHacked]

Our local hospital has four bed bays and single rooms. Partners are allowed to stay overnight if you are allocated a single room. You have to ask for a single room on arrival in order to be on the list for them.

Single rooms - yy
Dorms - no

[Crazeeladee]

How would you feel if ones with partners staying were in a separate bay, all together, women that didn't want men around them could be in a bay with others who felt the same? Am starting this on my ward after seeing it work at a different hospital, they found that only a small number if partners did actually stay.

[TheBogQueen]

This 'sidelining of men'

The mother and baby are the patients...

[scotchtikidoll]

ReallyFuckingFedUp I understand that the woman is the patient, however I am of the opinion that my OH's feelings are just as valid as mine (not regarding my choices over my body), like if a decision needed to be made about our son's wellbeing then we would make that decision together. I may be wearing the gown, but he (in my opinion) is still going through a lot too. I'm probably stupid for writing such a thing on a feminist board, but that is how I feel. However, I understand not everyone has a partner to go through the process with them, which is why I don't really support the campaign, as it wouldn't be fair on others if there were 3 men in with their partners.

I'm a bit sad now- I feel selfish for moaning upthread about how bad I felt just because my partner didn't get to spend the night and how I'm going to need to pay through the nose to get a private room next time. I'm now thinking about single mums who would at least be glad to get that choice at all.