Following on from the TERF thread...

[CailinDana]

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

OK kim in the link above about the transwoman playing basketball that said he could get "rookie of the year". Do you think that's fair? Can a person born as a woman and her weight and size even stand a chance there?

[FloraFox]

I don't care what the trans people think who are just getting on with their lives. I care about the trans activists who are shouting at women (especially lesbians) and demanding access to women's spaces and women's bodies. If other transwomen don't agree with them but keep quiet and do nothing, why should I care what they think? How does it impact the situation women are facing?

[FloraFox]

Many many women share these views, particularly when they have information about what the activists are seeking and how they go about it.

[SmallPress]

Which views do you have a problem with, kim?

It's worth noting, I think, that none of us know how many trans people we know, as some trans people are stealth. It's also true that - depending on how you define "non-binary", there's a hell of a lot more non-binary people out there than any of us take credit for. I did an experiment last year where I talked with various straight couples I knew, to find out if they had a sense of an innate gender. Some did, but a really surprising amount said they'd thought about it a lot, and really don't - to bring together and paraphrase what many of them said (over the course of many long conversations) they walk in the world as a woman or a man because of what is between their legs, so that is how the world treats them, not because how they feel inside, and if they woke up tomorrow in an opposite-sex body, it would be a mild inconvenience but it wouldn't be a tragedy, and indeed could be really interesting. You'd never know just by looking at them that this is how they feel, as none of them demand special status for it, and most of them acknowledge the privilege or otherwise that their physical state confers on them.

I liked that "we are all non-binary" article that was going around very recently.

[SmallPress]

If you mean the trans activists on twitter and tumblr: then to be at the top of the heap, and have people hanging on their every word. To be celebrated and have the power to be as obnoxious as they like without censure.

Actual trans activists and allies: I don't know, because I so rarely see them talk or write, but I imagine just to be able to live their lives as they like, without hassle from anyone else, just like the rest of us would like.

[SmallPress]

Of course - those sites don't represent the views of radical feminists. Do they?

I don't know the sites you mentioned, kim, but they aren't the only respesentation of radical feminism online. Eg, I have seen plenty of women who have been labelled "TERF" (whether it fits or not) stand up in public when a trans woman is being hassled, and offer their solidarity. It's easier to get a picture of how things are when there's different voices online, and when they aren't afraid to challenge the current orthodoxy, whatever it is.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Kim you asked what we want form trans women, and it was answered.

You also said we shouldn't pay attention to what "activist" say they want and talk to regular people.

Well, I asked you a question, you're a regular person?

Do you think the story above is fair? Do you think the transwoman has an advantage in that story?

I think she does. I think biology but also being raised and living as a man (especially a man in the Navy) result in her being unfairly advantaged at least and quite dangerous at worst as basket ball is a very hands on sport. Do you think it is fair for her to play?

Do you think this person has a right to call teenage girls bigoted and demand they use the same changing room as a person with a penis who fancies women? www.infowars.com/girls-threatened-with-hate-crime-charges-for-complaining-about-transgender-bathroom-harassment/

[SmallPress]

Being a different voice is very hard sometimes.

That's very true. I've seen women (some radical feminist, some only labelled so) hounded off social media altogether, and others absolutely crushed under the constant barrage of being called a bigot, a racist (usually by white people, who amazingly don't apologise if the woman in question points out she isn't white), a TERF, being told repeatedly to die in a fire, having people post pics of knives, etc, at them. I have occasionally peeked over the parapet, but dear god I don't know if I could stand to run into the line of fire like they have. I take my hat off to them.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Are laws being put in place to protect the right to abuse transactivist kim? Because laws are being changed that put and have put women in danger. It's not just trading stories. HOw many transactiist have been actually harmed by radfems?

I posted a link to the wrong story above, i'll try and find the proper one

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

It's not very nice, I'm sure. It is not the same as physical or sexual assault.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2227562/Colleen-Francis-Outrage-transgendered-woman-permitted-use-college-womens-locker-room-exposing-himself.html

DO you believe that biological women have a right to feel safe? DO you think it is fair for a person with a penis to show it to teen girls? For many women coming in to a private place where they are meant to feel safe only to find someone who by all appearances is a man.... you would expect to get raped.

[SmallPress]

Kim, I haven't seen anyone here saying the hounding of young trans girls on social media is a good thing. In fact, I have seen many women, here and elsewhere, speak up against that kind of thing, even when they are getting very nastily attacked themselves. So, what's your point?