Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Meaningful consent?

86 replies

calmet · 30/05/2014 22:26

Like many young women, when I started having boyfriends, I wanted to have sex. But like most in the UK, I was taught that sex= penis in vagina sex (PIV).

In reality, there are many ways of having sex. But if you are taught that having sex means having PIV, the you accept if you want sex, PIV is an automatic part of it.

So do women who think thsi meangfully consent to PIV? I don't think I did. To meaningfully consent I would have to know I had the choice of having sex with a man, and not having PIV. To meaningfully consent, I would have to be able to have a boyfriend who accepted it if I said I did not want to have PIV.

You can't meaningfully consent, if you don't know you have a choice, and if you can't say no.

OP posts:
5madthings · 31/05/2014 13:55

Exactly! I don't get it either!

Original poster
calmet · 31/05/2014 14:04

I know the old idea was that women didn't enjoy sex at all, and at least that has changed. But I am not sure how much things really have improved. I think there is a lot of pressure on young women especially, to do things their male partner wants to do, and pretend to enjoy it.

We don't have enough emphasis on the right to say no. And we don't have enough emphasis on the fact that women should enjoy sex too.

I went to a Gail Dines lecture about porn, and she said she spoke to a teacher who had been running a sex education class for teenagers. There was a lot of discussion about safe sex. The teacher then said you do know sex is supposed to be fun as well? And she said a few girls looked stunned at the idea that sex could be fun.

I have seen young women talk on the net about using a spray throat anaethestic that you can by from Ann Summers, to make deep throat blow jobs less painful. This wasn't on a BDSM site, but amongst ordinary young women who saw nothing at all wrong with that.

OP posts:
5madthings · 31/05/2014 14:06

Ann summers sell a throat anesthetic so women can give deep throat oral and it not hurt?!! Please tell me that's not true?!!

Original poster
calmet · 31/05/2014 14:23

It was on there about a year ago. It looks like they no longer sell it. This is the kind of product they were selling then. What horrified me though was how these young women on the internet were saying they saw no problem with it. I think they thought I was simply a prude.

www.femplay.com.au/woman/comfortably-numb-deep-throat-spray-mint-chocolate-29ml.html

OP posts:
5madthings · 31/05/2014 14:26

Dear god, how is that seen as a reasonable product to market :(

And the reviews from women saying how pleased they and their partners are that they can perform oral 'properly'...

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 31/05/2014 14:33

What next? Help your woman relax with extract of Roofie?

Angry
5madthings · 31/05/2014 14:39

What kind of man wants a woman to use that product?!! Thinks it's reasonable that she should?!!

Tmi but I don't like giving oral much due to a bad experience when younger, I do occasionally but I have to be really in the right mood and then I am happy to do so, but it's not something I can turn on and make myself do iyswim? Anyway Dp is perfectly fine with this. He enjoys it when he gets it but he doesn't even ask for it, he knows it's something I will do when I am happy to and he would never expect it or pressure me in any way. That's normal right? Not men expecting it to the point they want their partners to use a numbing throat spray so they don't gag...

Original poster
calmet · 31/05/2014 14:41

Ann Summers, the "respectable" end of sex shops, also has a lot of bondage equipment for sale. In amongst the lacy hand ties are some more hard core pieces of bondage equipment. What women my age see as hardcore, is now seen by many young women as mainstream or on the softer side.

OP posts:
Original poster
calmet · 31/05/2014 14:45

Gail Dines said that when she lectures on porn, she shows some examples of porn as it currently is. She said that women in their 30's and above are usually totally shocked at what she shows. But women younger are usually pretty blase and say they have seen worse.

I think there is a lack of understanding of what porn has done to young people's idea of sex. And that many things I find horrifying, are pretty mainstream to many young people.

OP posts:
ReallyFuckingFedUp · 31/05/2014 14:45

That is FUCKING VILE

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 31/05/2014 14:48

my boyfriend and I will be having fun with the deep throat spray for quite some time!

No, your boyfriend will be having fun. You will just be in less pain as you're dating a twat.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 31/05/2014 14:48

If it hurts (and you aren't in to pain) don't do it.

Are men expected to be in pain for sex? Ever?

Original poster
calmet · 31/05/2014 14:48

I really want to give these women links to the relationships board on MN.

OP posts:
Original poster
calmet · 31/05/2014 14:49

No really, men are never expected to put up with pain for sex, unless they are into it.

OP posts:
CailinDana · 31/05/2014 15:08

I can't do oral, for various reasons. DH is fine with that and would never expect it.

However, I am very aware that when I cuddle DH in bed and he's turned on I feel obligated to follow through. That pressure absolutely does not come from DH - he has never ever sulked or done anything to indicate that he's not ok with me just cuddling and going to sleep, leaving him "frustrated." So clearly this idea is ingrained in me.

5madthings · 31/05/2014 15:15

Yes yes cailin again this is tmi and I am going to have to name change, but dp is very happy to just satisfy me and to not want anything in return. Fab! But I can't help but feel when he does this that I should be returning the favour. And again this is NOT coming from dp, we have talked at length about it actually. And he really likes to just pleasure me sometimes and assures me he does not expect anything in return.

But I can't get rid of the niggly doubt/feeling that I should be returning the favour.

CailinDana · 31/05/2014 15:20

I always find it so sad to read threads from new mums in relationships saying how tired they are and how difficult they're finding new motherhood while at the same time their "d"P expects sex and how they've been giving blowjobs since the baby was born to "keep them satisfied."

How fucked up is it that there are men out there who see the woman they supposedly love knackered and struggling and all they can think about is where their next orgasm is coming from. And that the women don't see that actually it's fine for them to opt out of all sexual activity given that a human has just exited their body and they're pretty busy trying to tend that human. It's so fucked up.

SolidGoldBrass · 31/05/2014 16:10

I used to buy bondage equipment from Ann Summers, but to use on male partners. Not wild about the idea of that throat spray though - it sounds actively dangerous - and one reason not to buy BDSM gear from Ann Summers is that their stuff is often cheaply made and their staff don't know how it should be used.
I'm not advocating that anyone engage in BDSM if they hate the idea, but some people do enjoy it and some aspects of it are things that you actually need to learn how to do properly.

CailinDana · 31/05/2014 16:13

I'm wary of derailing into BDSM Solid, and I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but wrt consent, do you think the issues around it are amplified in relation to BDSM? What I mean is, given that straightforward consent is so problematic do you think consent in an arena where domination is part of the activity is even more problematic? Or is it the case that because the power relationships in BDSM are set out explicitly and boundaries are discussed that consent can actually be more well understood and given more freely?

SolidGoldBrass · 31/05/2014 17:35

On the whole, I think it's the latter - also helped by the fact that a lot of people who are into BDSM are very 'community'-minded and talk to each other a lot, so there is less chance of an abusive person being able to convince an inexperienced partner that there's one 'correct' way to do things. I know that some abusers who are not into BDSM target inexperienced partners purely in order to be able to get the inexperienced person to do things s/he doesn't want to do, by insisting that 'everyone' does it.

LoveSardines · 31/05/2014 18:08

I think there's a whole difference between what experienced consenting grown-ups get up to in private and what young teens who are just starting out should (should is not the word I want but I can't think of a better one).

In my mind people who are at the start of their sex lives should be starting out with mutual experimentation and finding out what they like together and trying different stuff with different people but kind of starting off with the basics IYSWIM and obviously if they find something they like then go for it but generally kind of starting off with the more safe "vanilla" end of things ...

The idea of it being the "norm" that young experimenting teens are kind of chucking themselves in at the deep end with stuff that people didn't normally get up to til they were a bit older and a bit more experienced feels all wrong to me, and they're doing it because let's face it porn these days is different and much more available than for previous generations, so they are getting exposed to all these sex acts and seeing them as a "normal" starting point and expectation IYSWIM.

Just the thought of young teens having to get to grips with anal and deep throating and god only knows what else, it was bad enough when i was a girl and it was a standard blowjob and a spot of PIV at that age (in that girls generally felt there were expectations on what they "did" as per what this thread is talking about).

Don't know if that makes sense bit of a stream of consciousness!

LoveSardines · 31/05/2014 18:09

"I know that some abusers who are not into BDSM target inexperienced partners purely in order to be able to get the inexperienced person to do things s/he doesn't want to do, by insisting that 'everyone' does it."

Not just on the BDSM scene is it, this is really common behaviour everywhere.

MatildaWhispers · 31/05/2014 20:15

Reading this thread emphasises to me how odd my early sexual experiences were given my age (I am mid 30s). The first person I had a long term relationship with must I assume have been ahead of his time with regards to his insistence on what I now understand to be deep throat oral. I thought, until quite recently, that was what everyone did. In fact I had a thread earlier in the week about this, as I was wondering how other women cope with oral, and whether/how it is actually possible to enjoy giving it. In the past I would have welcomed a product like that Ann Summers link, as I truly believed him when he insisted there was something wrong with the size of my mouth and I needed to 'practice'. I assume this ex did get his ideas from porn though, but does anyone know when this sort of thing became much more mainstream? The same guy had a thing about women being fully shaven too, which I have since realised was also probably the influence of porn. But this was all in the mid to late nineties, so maybe it was too early for porn to have influenced him, I don't know.

But i have dds now and worry about what will be the norm/expected when they become teenagers. I am particularly concerned about how it does seem early sexual experiences set the bar in terms of what you expect in later life. I have had various issues since in other relationships, and I realise now that is very likely due to my perceptions of 'normal' sex becoming quite warped early on. I worry that this could happen as a matter of course to more and more girls/women in the future.

DaVinciNight · 31/05/2014 20:28

YY to how early experience set the bar to what to expect later on in life.

I think one of the issue is the fact that it's a subject we don't talk about bar porn (not reality) or sex ed on clas (more than basic).
Maybe the Dutch way where teens are told about all this and consent and hue girls don't have to say YES to everything the guy wants ect is more necessary than just for 'preventing pregnancy'.

It also allows to talk about consent much more. It always surprises me when you see situations like BDSM where people do have a word to stop everything and if they use it, they are expected to do so. But I. Our 'normal' 'vanilla' world saying NO can be taken as a yes Hmm. And then all the issues going with it such as the woman saying yes because she feels there is no point saying no iyswim.

PacificDogwood · 31/05/2014 20:54

Matilda, reading this thread (and others on MN) has made me realise how exceptionally lucky I am to a. have had my first sexual experiences in the early 80s b. have lost my virginity relatively late (I was almost 19) and c. to have never been coerced/manipulated to do anything I did not like. I am really quite angry on your behalf and on behalf of the legions of women who will have experienced similar.
I have no desire to sound smug and I am sure I've done plenty because 'it was expected', but also because I was curious and horny as hell and was very comfortable with my first sexual partner who was not much more experienced than me (and the same age).

I hate how 'vanilla' now seems to mean 'boring' or 'staid' or 'what the unadventurous get up to' btw; it's not just a definition, it's a value judgement.

Interesting about BDSM being more outspoken and explicit about giving/getting consent - I never thought about it like that.