Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

that's the thing stormy - by being the assertive one i confess i have felt a bit rapey without meaning to belittle the word. he has quietly without spelling it out made it clear that there was some abuse in his childhood and i do feel the need to be very careful. god it sounds a mess doesn't it? yet the other way round is really not that uncommon and i've needed people to be very understanding and careful of me when i was younger and processing some stuff from childhood.

i don't want to hurt him and i'm full of compassion but so used to men being.... self interested that i'm wary of extending too much compassion and effort to a man. not sure that makes sense.

shit that actually is probably a large part of it - i'm so used to men turning out to be selfish shits that the idea of putting myself into such a caring and understanding position for a man feels very vulnerable making.

It does make sense. I'll have to come back to it later though, the toddler just woke up and is demanding full attention.

As an aside, does anyone else get really annoyed by the description of the victims of the Beeb's paedophilia department as "young girls"? The victims for the most part seem to have been in their teens. They say young girls, I think three, four. Thirteen cladding as a young girl only really makes sense if girlhood lasts until, I dunno, forty or something.

presumably it's so acceptable to fuck 'girls' and see girls as sexual objects that you have to add young to have any kind of impact? says a lot about our concept of girls. i'd rather they stuck to 'children' personally.

I've just read an article on the avalanche of creepy "show me your boos" "wanna fuck" and "here's a photo of my cock" texts/PMs that are apparently now a "normal" part of young women's lives. Yay for high-tech street harassment. The best bit of the whole article was (of course) the comments section were it was suggested that if women don't like it they should stay off the internet/never give out their phone number, and, in a fun new twist of NAMALT, proclamations that it's unfair to blame men for this (erm, but men are sending the messages, so erm, who exactly should be blamed then? Women for having the audacity to have boobs in the first place?).

What jolly japes.

Yes, I agree. I think the thing is, some of the victims were 'young girls' (7 or 8). And, sadly, in our society, that is the bit that a lot of people find shocking. I've heard lots of older people defending the sort of thing like groping a teenager's breasts as 'what went on', but none of them defend groping a 7 year old, so maybe the headlines are written that way for maximum impact?

Shocking though, isn't it. All of it.

Not at all Buffy. I agree with you. If you get to the point where you have the physical attributes of a woman, it's only 'as bad' as groping a woman - ie. not very bad at all really [anger]

I think Penguin's probably right that they say young girls for maximum impact. But I still don't like it - sexual assault ought to be viewed as appalling no matter the age of the victim, and the constant use of "young girls" does suggest that their age is what makes it bad. I'm probably not expressing myself very well, but it feels like the language is just reinforcing the idea that the behaviour is only unacceptable because the victims were young.

Absolutely Stormy.

My phone won't let me post so I'm dipping in and out when I can get a minute at the computer!

Just a very small, positive thing. Feminism seems to have clicked for my DH in the last year or so, perhaps due to us having a DD. His understanding of it is pretty basic but he is willing to listen and accept my viewpoint on things which is a good change - he was much more "devil's advocate" and "that's not how it is" in the past.

I was pleased recently when he said he had created a job for a very good intern he had worked with that was trying to get back into work after time as a SAHM. He did it because she was good and he understood the disadvantages that were there for anyone (women mainly) who take time out to be with children. Normally it would be incredibly hard for her to get anything worthwhile as the system is completely stacked against her, so he (legally) circumvented the system to ensure she gets a foot on the ladder. Once she gets on that first rung she'll be fine. A small but significant thing.

Fricking evening standard describing how Rolf Harris had "child porn" (ie child abuse images, idiots) on his computer and NAMING THE SITES HE ACCESSED.

cailindana how did you get your husband to switch from devil's advocate. My husband is that way out. It always ends in argument. Getting old!!

Hi. I wanted to drop in to get your input on this:
m.imgur.com/gallery/zFwAcdB

I'm really irritated by it and I can't crystallise why. I think it's because it seems to want to make the challenges men face from a macho culture equivalent to the challenges women face from a patriarchal culture. And they just don't seem to be the same to me (I'd guess that effeminate men as a group probably out-earn women in equivalent roles, for example, although obviously no one gathers such data). I think it minimises the challenges women face. And is a blatant male privilege statement - "Your problems? Oh they aren't your problems. They're the same as my problems. Let's talk about my problems instead".

Am I mad, is this actually ok, am I being too sensitive?

Asutty, it's taken 12 years! Partly it's me becoming more confident (thanks largely to mumsnet) and sticking to my guns more rather than backing down. I'm able to frame my arguments better so he can't easily dismiss them. I've also managed to get across that for me it's not just a theoretical argument, it's about my actual life and that him playing "devil's advocate" is quite nasty and belittling.

Ohh, I never thought it. I've only read Germaine Greer female eunuch and whole woman last summer after a few years of thinking she was the other type of feminist. Glad I read her books because she focused my arguments instead of just being confused about my thoughts. I do the "but this is my reality" and maybe more time and less belittling will help this for sure! Thanks.

exactly penguin - older children is so normal apparently where as younger is shocking. err.... i don't like it at all and it just shows how 'un'shocking society usually finds having sex with female children that they have to make the point, 'oh it wasn't just any old child rape this was like actual disturbing child rape of a little child'.

sad reflection.

Whereisshe I think you might be right because if a man can pull himself out of that mindset and not be bothered as many women (or should I say feminists) brush off insults daily. He still has the advantage of being a man! Where we are still women in a patriarchal society.

i'm sorry i missed a whole page i think. going back to read and sorry if that's a mile out of context.

i read - it really is like a pub with so much cross talking

only comment is that i'm really grateful to people like gg or dworkins because for all we know they knew that the only a woman would get real coverage is if she was appearing to be scorned and portrayed as extreme and 'other'. that'd be a proper 'one for the team' spin

That's just it asutty. I want to slap whoever drew the cartoon and say "look at all the benefits you get from being a man! Stop whining!".

It would be like me, as a white person from a developed country, writing a poor me cartoon saying that racist global capitalism disadvantages me too because it means I have to live a less "authentic" life. Or similar.

I am joining you on this thread saying "Hi" to everyone.

I am a bit bruised by shit stirrers at work and how I am easily drawn in ...
(must learn... must learn... must learn... )

I wonder how many of you have experience working with men who think that they are very progressive but deep inside they are misogynistic and scared of women. I must add I work in IT, as an Engineer in mostly men dominated department. Yes, I am being doubted on many occasions on my technical abilities and it is very hard to keep proving I also have brain!
{rant over }

Antimatter I think most men in my family including my husband think they are progressive but (almost) daily show misogynistic ways. I wouldn't know how to deal with them at work. All I can say is I had to learn when to argue and how because sometimes you're just out numbered. There are times when you will be down because you did bite your tongue.. and other times when they "overpower" you with sheer numbers and voice so you wont get your point across and that will get you down too. It is a difficult situation and I spent 6 weeks last summer with my Art graduate brother and "for equality" husband that shut me down every time I opened my mouth "but its not really like that these days", so I just shouted at them in my head. I've gone back down the drip feeding route for now. (that is until i found Mumsnet again and the fire has been lit!!!) I will commence the lecturing again

asutty5 - I can see that they believe they are progressive but at least once a day they will say something and I am nearly screaming at them (in my head).

I think I will disassociate myself and hopefully with education on this board will arrive (eventually) with enough arguments to be able to engage in a discussion but not to be too emotional about it.

What is interesting is that both my kids have very feminist attitude and they (ds in secondary school, dd going to 6th form) are very strong in their opinions. I hope by the time they arrive in full-time work environment is going to change for them.