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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

999 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/05/2014 18:37

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

Smile
OP posts:
kim147 · 08/06/2014 15:14

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Dragonlette · 08/06/2014 15:16

Are you primary or secondary Kim? Primary schools in our area always have at least 100 applications for each job, whether it's ft or pt. So well qualified candidates do regularly end up missing out because someone else is just slightly more polished or seems to gel with the rest of the staff. They generally only interview the best 5-10 so if you were getting interviews then you're doing better than most of my primary teaching friends. Out of 20 friends/aquaintances who are qualified to teach primary only 3 have a primary teaching job, another 4 are TAs either in primary or secondary, and the rest work in something completely unrelated or decided to become sahps. It's not just you finding it extremely difficult to get a job in teaching, although in secondary it's different depending on your subject.

kim147 · 08/06/2014 15:18

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calmet · 08/06/2014 15:18

I have had to explain to people who I ahve turned down for a job, that all of those we interviewed were overqualified. It is hard in most places to get a job now, and most of the people we appoint are actually taking a step down.

OutsSelf · 08/06/2014 15:36

70 people went for my current job. I took a massive step down into it, which is probably why I got it over and above qualifications as I am not as qualified as even the average person in my position (I don't have a PhD - everyone else in the whole world doing my job has a PhD, it seems).

It's quite interesting this question. 'Best qualified for the job' sounds objective but isn't isn't isn't. So when panels are saying that is what they are appointing on this basis of I feel suspicious because it's pretending that we are gender, race, identity blind and we are not. Panels saying that are actually by default engaging in gender, age, race, disability etc. discrimination. Otherwise, what's with all the white men in jobs? Because they are not better qualified at any level than women, certainly. I don't think you can eliminate unconscious social bias but you certainly can look at the employment record of your organisation and realise (and you're very lucky if you don't realise this) that you usually give senior positions etc. to white men and adjust your bar accordingly.

Speaking of which, though, you know the whole furore about schools failing boys because girls are outperforming them. My mum, a primary school teacher says this was always the case, that more boys went up to Grammar School because they designated a certain amount of Grammar School places for boys, (and a lesser amount for girls) so many of those places will have gone to boys outperformed by girls never given places.

Dragonlette · 08/06/2014 15:57

Yes Outs I've heard that many times before. Grammar schools were filled with boys because boys needed to be better educated than the girls because girls would only work for a little while before they gave up work to get married and have babies. And even though girls are doing better in education and getting higher qualifications than boys, did you realise that boys take up a disproportionate amount of teacher time? I didn't until I read an article about it some time last year, and since then it has become startlingly obvious, even in my own classroom, that boys DO take up more time than the girls. Probably 70% of my interactions with students were with boys because they are louder and demand more attention, I have to deal with far more minor discipline incidents to do with boys shouting out than I do with girls. I don't actually know how to stop it though, I can't just ignore the boys when they are misbehaving, and I do need to ask them questions as well to make sure they are learning, especially since our big school focus is improving the boys' performance.

Kim you have my sympathy about not being able to get a teaching job. One of my friends sent out 150 applications to schools in a HUGE area, got 35 interviews and STILL hasn't got a job, despite having a lot of experience and being very well qualified. She had 7 years being a sahm to her 3 children, so that was what put schools off her. She's now working at a local farm running and organising school visits. She loves it, but is very pissed off that she couldn't get a teaching post, you sound very similar.

PacificDogwood · 08/06/2014 16:52

Thank you for all your thoughts.

OutsSelf, your first post in response to my question verbalised everything I was uncomfortable about. Gah!

Kim, that sounds really shit. Glad that things seem better now Thanks

We had a similar conundrum wrt to race.
I really don't want to go in to details (before I get hauled in front of the GMC Wink), but just like there are certain assumptions made about men/women, there are assumptions about race. Prejudiced assumptions, but that does not mean they are not there.

Our issue was not so much about who we'd be happy to work with, but who the general populace would accept.
Possibly over thinking this now and people would get used to whoever…. Grin

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/06/2014 17:22

Teaching is really depressing to get into atm. My mate was just talking about it. But I shouldn't moan, because I don't get as far as the interviews. My shit SPAG puts them off at the first hurdle. Lucky me.

I have a minor rant for the pub. You know the tumblr of men taking up space on the tube? Well, on the tube today some bloke sat down - and bear in mind it is a hot, sticky day in London today - and spread out his arm down the back of my seat. Hmm So I was pissed off, and hot, and didn't fancy armpit in my face, so I said 'do you mind'. And yes, I was snippy. He replied 'huh' and I had to explain 'you've put your arm down the back of my seat, can you move it please'. And he just made a face and didn't move.

I so much want to to twat him one. I wouldn't obviously! But I really, really saw red for a moment.

(I may have clonked him with my bag as I got up two stops later. It wasn't very mature of me, but ...).

Grrr. Angry

OP posts:
calmet · 08/06/2014 17:28

I would have dug my elbow into his arm. Don't blame you for clonking him with your bag.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/06/2014 17:36

My elbow was at the wrong height. His arm was resting on the seat behind my neck - the way I would find perfectly appropriate if DH did it, but I really didn't like it from a (sweaty) random person.

OP posts:
calmet · 08/06/2014 17:38

No it is a serious invasion of personal space.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/06/2014 17:39

Yep. I am angry about it.

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AskBasil · 08/06/2014 17:57

Glad you clonked him with your bag.

I sometimes have fantasies about walking down the street in an iron cage with sharp pointy bits sticking out.

I realise that's when I'm feeling mad.

Grin
gamescompendium · 08/06/2014 18:25

You were too polite. Next time say in a very loud voice ' Excuse me, I don't know you, why have you put your arm around me?' The point being you need to be loud enough for other people to hear and shame him.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/06/2014 18:34

Erm ... yeah, I get that, but I wasn't 'too polite'. He was too much of a jerk. It's not actually my fault.

I was plenty loud enough, and it was perfectly obvious I wasn't happy. No-one else so much as made eye contact, though I am fairly sure from their body language several of them were well aware.

And yes, I could also have got up and stood, or whatever, but I shouldn't bloody have to.

ask - I like your fantasy. Very Boudicca (Boadicea?). I'll vote for that.

OP posts:
PacificDogwood · 08/06/2014 19:32

LRD, maybe you should've sat on his lap in response? He was clearly very much taken by you and wanted you to be his mate. Hmm

Seriously. Imagine a woman putting her sweaty arm along the backrest of some random man's seat. It would be seen as 'forward' and 'weird' and 'does not understand personal boundaries' and, of course 'she's asking for it'.

I think I may have either quietly seethed and said nothing at all, or picked an argument after he did not remove his limb after me initial 'do you mind'.

PacificDogwood · 08/06/2014 19:33

Not a v feminist thought, but your story makes me glad I don't have much of a commute (I walk).
Yeuch. CaveMan first thing in the morning or after a long day. I am not sure I'd keep my composure.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 08/06/2014 20:06

Games, someone who doesn't care about a women's personal space to the extent that he (a) does that and (b) didn't remove it when asked isn't someone who just needed to be asked in a louder voice.

OutsSelf · 08/06/2014 21:27

Bad luck, LRD. I'm always getting surprised and enraged by the extent to which individual men will act out their perceived entitlement. The cultural wide gaslighting that goes on about it makes me doubt my sanity sometimes so thanks for sharing, sorry I can't do anything but witness your rage though. What a fecking nobber.

kim147 · 08/06/2014 21:31

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutsSelf · 08/06/2014 21:33

I sometimes have to carry around a long staff, for training (martial arts). I fucking love it. People don't necessarily know what it's for but have to give you a certain amount of space anyway. I know what it's for though Grin

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/06/2014 21:33

Thanks outs.

kim - no, he never moved his arm. He wasn't flirting (would've been terrible flirting!) either - he was with a woman and talking to her. He obviously just wanted to stretch his arm out and figured he'd just go right ahead.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/06/2014 21:35

outs - now that's pretty awesome. Grin

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kim147 · 08/06/2014 21:36

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood · 08/06/2014 21:37

He has somebody with him? Shock

Wow. Just wow.
I think a club staff is the way forward.