Is sex working ever 'acceptable'

[neverthebride]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board so please be gentle (!) but I'd really appreciate some views.

I have a friend who is a sex worker. Very 'exclusive' kind of thing, earns a lot of money etc. I've known her for a long time but it's only recently that she's confided in me that that's how she earns her living.

I've known several sex workers in the past (I work in MH) and those people have been at the 'street level' and were invariably drug addicts and/or very damaged individuals who were abused in so many ways in their personal lives and as sex workers and would not have been sex workers if they felt they had other options.

My friend has apparently been doing sex work for a long time. She is highly educated, has no history of abuse in her life and seems to have made an informed choice to go into sex work as a 'business'. Her clients are big-spenders and she works in an environment where all possible safety precautions are taken. She does not do anything that she doesn't want to do and has made an enormous amount of money (which she admits she is 'addicted to').

I'm really torn on this issue which I didn't think I would be!. On one hand,I think HER experience might be positive but it's perpetuating the idea that sex and bodies are for sale and I absolutely disagree with that and know that the overwhelming experience of sex workers is just horrific.

On the other hand, I think she's an adult woman who's educated and informed and who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to say that she can't make the decision about what she does with her own body?.

I won't not be her friend because of her choices but I feel so uncomfortable with either of my thought processes. Help!

I am lol at this:

""Your response to points about underage girls being approached for sex in return for material items / cash? Oh that's illegal so there'e no problem."

It's illegal and those laws are enforced and perpetrators are sent to prison. What else do you propose?"

Did it sound like the men in my stories went to prison? No, of course they didn't. Honestly do you actually live in real life?

FWIW I suggested that it would be nice if men didn't approach underage girls for sex, whether paid or otherwise. That was my suggestion, and we could move towards that through a variety of means to do with cultural change and education. But you have conveniently ignored that.

Right.

Never been a teenage girls, have you.

Why did you change your name sahisaj?

Oh good question.

Oh dear, did you get banned and sneak back in?

Well, duh. I'm just trying to work out which of our regular punters he is.

Can't remember which of them had no clue that wanting to pay to fuck teenage girls isn't paedophilia....

But no, everyone obviously does NOT know that approaching teenage girls for sex is wrong, because they still do it.

It depends what you mean by "teenage". Teenage can mean any age from 13 to 19.

It's the same one as always. He must break the record for number of email addresses registered...

There's another term for it, previously banned p*nter number 762. Google is your friend,

In the cases I mentioned the girls were 13/14.

Teenage, and also underage.

Although fortunately as we have now learned, any men who do what I described upthread are now immediately arrested, imprisoned and the vilified for the rest of their lives. Phew!

Like I say, never been a teenage girl have you.

Well, as 13-19 yo teenagers are rarely pre-pubescent, it still aint paedophilia. Please do try and catch up, punter dear.

So, you think it's not ok for men to try and pay teenagers for sex, how about adult women just going about their business? Is it ok for men to offer to pay them for sex?

Or does that just suggest that those men see all women as commodities and therefore fair game?

Did I say it was? Kindly do stop trying to put words in my mouth.

"how about adult women just going about their business?"

Like I already said, that is illegal. And I don't think it's ok.

btw either gender can be a client and either gender can be a worker.

"Or does that just suggest that those men see all women as commodities and therefore fair game?"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Another name change? Last one got banned again did it?

You implied it was paedophilia when you said that it was a crime in relation to LoveSardines post, please don't dissemble, it weakens your already weak case.

While either gender can be a punter and either a seller, it is overwhelmingly men who are the buyers in the transaction, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Not a straw man, certainly not on a feminist board, keep trying, you might actually make a point at some time in the future, punter.

Buffy: regarding sex work as work is about emphasizing the rights of the workers to a safe workplace, autonomy etc rather than seeing them as either helpless victims (who need to be prevented from doing the work for their Own Good, which can mean deporting them back to an uncertain future or preventing them from earning a living: because sex work is so stigmatized it is very difficult for a former sex worker to get a different job - whether s/he wants to leave sex work or because s/he has been forcibly 'rescued' from sex work) or immoral people who deserve any mistreatment they experience because, well, they shouldn't be doing such a job in the first place.

Way to go and put words in my mouth.

btw signing up takes less than a minute.

If you want it classed as work in the UK, especially if the sellers are to be employees in brothels then there needs to be regulated health and safety, training, equality, sick pay and maternity pay.

I doubt there could possibly be any HSE or equality regulations that would adequately protect sex workers and not put off punters (constant monitored CCTV, minder in the room, sexual health screening for all punters (as condoms are too high risk), specific hygeine requirements (hibiscrub under the foreskin!), CRBing and registering punters due to risk of violence etc. not being able to choose a specific age/gender/appearance/ethnicity of worker).

You'd have to ignore all those protections and legislations that would make it actual employment (like scrubbing toilets is etc.) in the service sector.

Or do you want it classed as 'work' but without training and protection and benefits with the women at risk of violence, disease and pregnancy and discriminated against for their age and appearance.

I'm against buying sex on feminist principle but if you want it to stick around and be regarded as work then at least be vocal about supporting proper regulation.

@Ramsay, classing it as work is better than the alternative suggested by many feminists:

lauraslifeandthoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/sex-workers-response-stop.html

“Before even thinking of a law that criminalises men who buy sex, UK politicians should hear from Swedish sex workers like myself about how we have treated under the law [in Sweden]. We are still criminalised if we work together in apartments, we risk losing our home if we sell sex there even if we own it, social workers treat as like children and we can even lose custody of our kids because we are seen as victims suffering from a form of self-harm who can't take care of ourselves. This law should be taken away not exported to other countries.”

Well, maybe it would be, but punters would not like it one bit and the black market would flourish. As it does in other countries where it's legalised (not that working conditions are half as good as they need to be in places like Germany etc.).

Since sexworkers are "almost always unwilling to testify against their clients" in Sweden, convictions are nearly unattainable.

Also trying to enforce the law in Sweden costs a lot of money which means money and resources for social work in Sweden are now scarce.

hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

(page 38)

Yes, the Swedish model is not working to full efficiency. It needs some big tweaks and has made many mistakes.

But it is shaping an attitude change for the positive (from a feminist perspective). It says 'our society values women and we won't sanction the use of their bodies (often borne of desperation) for something that is most definitely non-essential. Countries like the Netherlands and Germany are saying the opposite and this normalises the use of prostitutes among men and leads to increased demand.

I'm not quite sure why I'm explaining this to you, though, because you don't care what it feels like to be a woman living in a society where even the government agrees with your subjugation.

In fact, I doubt you can see any connection between prostitution and the oppression of women.

In fact, I doubt you believe there is oppression of women in the western world.

"But it is shaping an attitude change "

Is it? Prostitution has been illegal in most USA states for generations and it is still thriving.

Making prostitution illegal or partly-illegal won't stop it, and will create adverse issues for the people the law intends to protect.

"and leads to increased demand."

For starters Germany is huge compared to Sweden. And secondly when it is illegal or partly-illegal it is pushed underground and harder to keep track of the size of the industry.