Is sex working ever 'acceptable'

[neverthebride]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board so please be gentle (!) but I'd really appreciate some views.

I have a friend who is a sex worker. Very 'exclusive' kind of thing, earns a lot of money etc. I've known her for a long time but it's only recently that she's confided in me that that's how she earns her living.

I've known several sex workers in the past (I work in MH) and those people have been at the 'street level' and were invariably drug addicts and/or very damaged individuals who were abused in so many ways in their personal lives and as sex workers and would not have been sex workers if they felt they had other options.

My friend has apparently been doing sex work for a long time. She is highly educated, has no history of abuse in her life and seems to have made an informed choice to go into sex work as a 'business'. Her clients are big-spenders and she works in an environment where all possible safety precautions are taken. She does not do anything that she doesn't want to do and has made an enormous amount of money (which she admits she is 'addicted to').

I'm really torn on this issue which I didn't think I would be!. On one hand,I think HER experience might be positive but it's perpetuating the idea that sex and bodies are for sale and I absolutely disagree with that and know that the overwhelming experience of sex workers is just horrific.

On the other hand, I think she's an adult woman who's educated and informed and who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to say that she can't make the decision about what she does with her own body?.

I won't not be her friend because of her choices but I feel so uncomfortable with either of my thought processes. Help!

I choose these examples deliberately as sex is a recreational activity, or at least closer to a branch of the entertainment industry than (eg) cleaning toilets or gutting fish for a living.

One fundamental contradiction with saying that sex can be 'work' is that sex, in the feminist definition of it at least, is something that people engage in because both parties want to do it.

In prostitution, only one party (the punter) actually wants the sex. The other party is merely enduring the sex because she wants the money. I can't see how people who claim to be for women's sexual liberation can reconcile this. And I genuinely don't understand the appeal of paying someone who has no desire to have sex with you to endure your presence and your touch and then calling this 'good sex'.

It is a conception of sex that could only have arisen under patriarchy, in which men long ago decided that women's actual desire to engage in sex was irrelevant to the sex act. Any man who understands women as full human beings would be repulsed by the idea of paying a woman to suppress her fear or pain or boredom or disgust while he has sex on her body.

Couldn't agree more, DonkeySkin.

It's not available at the local FE college is it SGB, next to the dancing class and the painting class and the music class! Which were the things you aligned it with and do not have any age related rules.

I can just imagine now, right class, let's do some learning about sex. 25 year old Dan, I'd like you to penetrate 63 year old George digitally and both of you tell me how that feels..... Your're both straight? Well that shouldn't be a problem off you go. There's no women here anyway...

Totally agree DonkeySkin. Apparently, being "sex positive" means enduring sex you don't want either for money or for "empowerment".

Sex is, for many people, a recreational activity. As with other recreational activities, some people prefer to engage in it with friends and do it 'intuitively', others want to increase their skills, practise with a professional, hire a professional for an out-of-the-ordinary experience - or decide to earn money with their skills.
That's what sex work ought to be. That's what it is for a minority, at present. Byt while people are still insisting that it's not possible for a sex worker to have autonomy and that hiring a sex worker is wicked and disgusting, the exploitation and stigma continue.

"But while people are still insisting that it's not possible for a sex worker to have autonomy and that hiring a sex worker is wicked and disgusting,"

You see I don't think that and have never said that. It's not a general feminist stance either AFAIK.

It would be great if we lived in an egalitarian non-patriarchal society without the influences of religion at one end and porn at the other tampering with people's sex lives and desires. However until we get to that point, where everyone is free and easy and choices are made without influence and society is genuinely accepting, the whole area of sex for profit is rife with problems, many of which are so serious they can't be ignored.

Once society is fixed I will come on some marches or whathaveyou if you like But up til that point I'm going to keep with the line I'm on at the moment.

Oh mis-read.

I'm not keen at all on people who pay for sex.

I suppose there is a tiny minority who carry out careful evaluations of the people they pay to check that their choices are free and genuine, they are not being coerced or controlled, that they have not got issues in their past which have mucked around with their self-esteem or sexuality or anything like that.....

Again we're looking at this utopia aren't we. I can't see us ever getting there so the question is moot really.

The vast majority of punters I'm sure couldn't give a flying fuck what the situation is for the person they are buying sex from. Most of them will be content with the person saying it is their choice and not concern themselves further, some will suspect it is not and not concern themselves anyway, and some will take active pleasure from a situation where they feel that the person really doesn't want to be there.

The whole thing is totally fucked up and no conversations about how things would be in an ideal world have much point until we are in that ideal world really.

there is nothing wrong with exchanging sex for money it's no more inherently wrong than dancing for money, singing for money, reading tarot cards for money, writing for money or acting for money.

When my friends pay to watch someone sing, they talk about it. They get excited, put pictures of the concert up on facebook and everything.

None of my friends talks about paying for sex. Maybe I have the 'wrong' friends.

If punters had to have a licence before they could buy sex; if they had to present their licence with photo ID and a verifiable contact number to the person they were buying from; and if their details, as a licensed buyer of sex, were accessible to employers, spouses and law enforcement; if all this were accepted, then we might be able to compare the purchase of sex with the purchase of other personal services. And we could begin to talk about decriminalisation. I wouldn't like it, I'd still think it reinforced misogynistic attitudes to women, but I might be inclined to take arguments about "free choice" a bit more seriously, since punters would have to own up to the reality of their choice — to pay for sex — rather than ducking out of it anonymously as they do at present.

I don't see anyone saying that women in prostitution have no autonomy but even by your own statements SGB you are saying that the majority of women in prostitution are not experiencing this idealised notion of "sex work" you have. To be frank, I couldn't give a fuck about those women's autonomy no more than I could give a fuck about someone's "right" to work for less than minimum wage.

"No, Flora means £30. A lot have to sell it for less. I know this, I have looked after them before. You could also have a look on P*net and have a look at how much the women earn on average and then come back and tell us."

I've looked on adultwork (you lot keep mentioning p'net but there are other sites) and the vast majority of escorts charge over £100 an hour. And it's common to see £200+ an hour

"Is it was, there would be baby sex classes for middle class parents to take their children to for a head start, people would join classes at the local college to do it with groups of strangers of all ages and sexes, and work bonding activities would include Dave from accounts being asked to give Mike from HR a blow job to further inter-team cohesion."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

"I'm always a bit hmm about the sex lives of people who would claim it is work. But apparently that makes me a prude."

Why care so much about what other adults do?

A few decades ago a lot of people were up in arms over the idea of homosexual couples having sex behind closed doors. Today a lot of people are up in arms over other consenting adults engaging in sexwork.

Fast forward a few more decades and sexwork will be more accepted and something else will be the focus for people who care too much about other adults like to do in private.

Right so on that basis should I go ahead and tell the wives of the men I know have paid for sex that they have done so? If it's all so hunky-dory and everyone should just be down with it?

Incidentally I think the men who were having sex with men knew, you know, that they were having sex with men...

To place equivalence between consensual homosexual sex, and sex where the consent of one person is being bought, is pretty bloody offensive.

"Calling prostitution a recreational activity ignores the one-sideness of the transaction, as well as the power dynamics and the sexist and racist nature of the business"

Racist? How?

"In prostitution, only one party (the punter) actually wants the sex. The other party is merely enduring the sex because she wants the money."

Welcome to the concept of work. I'm sure what you just said is true for almost every job in existence. Do you think cleaners clean the shit, urine and vomit off public toilets because they want to? Or do they just do it for the money?

"and sex where the consent of one person is being bought,"

And what is it to you if other adults want to "sell their consent"? Do they need your permission?

Basically all you're interested in is access to women to fuck.

Your responses to points about trafficking? That trafficking doesn't happen.
Your response to points about underage girls being approached for sex in return for material items / cash? Oh that's illegal so there'e no problem.
etc.

Don't worry, there is going to be no shortage of women and girls for you to fuck in return for cash any time soon, nor men or boys if that is your bag.

To keep whining on at a group of women on the net who are concerned about women and girls and men and boys who are in this industry for reasons that do not amount to free choice, is really strange. What does it matter to you? What we say doesn't affect your access to orifices. Are you actually against assisting people who are working in prostitution when they do not wish to be? That is the only conclusion I can come to, presumably as that might reduce choice and put prices up slightly.

It's worth considering the whole concept of 'work' in general. Lots of people don't like their jobs, whether that's because the tasks they perform are dull, or dangerous, or distasteful, or whether that's because they are paid too little, or bullied, or feel they have no option other than to do this particular job no matter how much they hate it. There's an infuriating set of memes around 'do what you love' which completely ignores the fact that most people 'work' in order to earn a living, and see the work they do as a means to an end. Even if the tasks you perform to earn your living are things you might do (or other people might do) as a leisure activity as well, there can be times when you don't feel in the mood to do them today, or the particular customer you are performing the tasks for is rude/unappreciative/hostile.
To consider sex work as work is simply to consider that anyone who performs tasks to earn money has the right to fair pay, safe working conditions, autonomy to accept or refuse the work etc. It's not to insist that everyone should be compelled to take up every type of work regardless of their preferences.

"Your responses to points about trafficking?"

It's hugely exaggerated.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

and

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

"Your response to points about underage girls being approached for sex in return for material items / cash? Oh that's illegal so there'e no problem."

It's illegal and those laws are enforced and perpetrators are sent to prison. What else do you propose?

Enzima, do you think that people who borrow money, or gamble, or buy alcohol, or dance, or consult psychics, should have to have a license to do so and accept that their choices should be proclaimed to everyone who knows them?

Why care so much about what other adults do?

I care about women's rights and women's sexual gratification because I am a feminist. Why are you trying to normalise an activity in which women's sexual gratification is disregarded?

The old "homosexuality used to be illegal" trope. Yawn. So did incest. Oh look, still illegal, still unacceptable. Just because one thing used to be illegal and now it isn't, doesn't mean everything else will eventually become legal. I can see you're not big on logic.

"Are you actually against assisting people who are working in prostitution when they do not wish to be?"

No, but I'm against other things- I'm against raids on brothels by teams of male officers with photographers. I'm against sexworkers being "outed" (exposed) by the media. I'm against the law where sexworkers are committing a crime by working together. I'm against sexworkers being dismissed as "privileged" if they speak up but don't have any horror stories to tell.

"So did incest. Oh look, still illegal"

Not wanting to go off topic but incest is legal in Portugal (a country which also has legal prostitution and also hasn't sent anyone to prison for drugs in the past decade and has seen a vast reduction in crime.)

In the USA there's a trend where soft drugs are becoming more tolerable as years pass.

And despite resistance from religion, same-sex marriage is becoming more tolerated.