Playing devil's advocate. Can I discuss this here?

[AskBasil]

It's not always a feminist issue but often it is. Mostly when I've seen it done by women, they say up front "just to play devil's advocate here, what about...?" and they're honest about playing DA or just playing with the idea, throwing it out there and seeing if it's got any merit. Whereas the man I want to discuss ,does it as if he believes in what he is saying when I have previously heard him strenuously argue something else, so I'm not actually sure what he believes.

This makes me very uncomfortable, because I think there's a level of dishonesty and also disrespect about it; I feel like he's wasting my time and energy by engaging me in some sort of power game where he wants to get one over on me. Whereas I'm not interested in winning an argument, I like exploring ideas and issues. He's a friend I've known for a long time, he and his wife worked in the same company as me for a while and we've been friends ever since, but I've realised I don't actually like him very much, however I'm v. good friends with his wife (and kids).

Another friend of mine who knows them both pointed out that when people play DA they always do it from a right wing stance; (she's never heard someone with right wing leanings, argue for higher taxes and better income re-distribution in order to play DA and wind someone up). She reckons it's because people who do it are actually reactionary bastards who like to think they're liberal and so dress up their actual opinions as DA because they can't bear to think they share opinions with right wing people for whom they have some distaste. Another friend of our's reckons people who do it simply don't believe anything.

Anyway, we were over there for dinner last Friday and he did it again and it really pissed me off (and elicited this bitch-fest discussion with my other friend who reckons he's a deep down closet reactionary ). I felt the need to vent and also to find out if anyone else has a friend like this and how they engage with him - I actually try not to get into discussions with him because I realise I don't want And also to find out if there's any feminist angle to this because I have never seen him do this to men, only to women and he particularly likes to do it around feminist topics.

"That's one of the things I want to know FF - do men do this in RL with other men?"

Yes some do, I do. But it depends on the circumstance of the conversation and the people involved in it, their nature and ability to hold anothers opinion (devils or not) worthy of consideration.

It sounds like he's being a wind up merchant rather than furthering debate by posing contrary views.

But saying that It is possible to hold contradictory views on a subject at the same time and most some men will judge a situation/subject from a few varied viewpoints before deciding on which one they will doggedly hold. never to be swayed from

My dad does this to me. It is exhausting and just means I edit and censor everything I say in case he latches onto something to argue debate about.

For example, he drives a lot for a living and is always critical of everyone else's driving, moaning about speeders, tailgaters and sunday-drivers. If I turn up to visit and say I had a nightmare journey stuck behind someone doing 20mph on a main road he will launch into a rant about how I shouldn't judge them, how there could be a million reasons they were going so slow etc.

He does do it to other men but, thinking about it, he only does it to those he feels powerful around i.e. his brothers, son, younger colleagues. He doesn't do it to my H or his bosses etc.

"What you are saying is of use to neither man nor beast."

Made me laugh.

I so identify with what everyone is saying. So tedious, isn't it?

" he only does it to those he feels powerful around i.e. his brothers, son, younger colleagues. He doesn't do it to my H or his bosses etc."

Hmm.

Interesting. There is something to do with power going on here isn't there? I'm not quite sure what.

LOL at you being less patient and more arsey than me LRD. Not sure about that!

Possibly they only do it to people who's time they feel entitled to waste.

That's it exactly Ria.

You could go over to the red pill and read whole threads on alpha male behaviour and how to get women to have sex with you by:

A. Dominating the conversation.
B. Making yourself the appointed judge of the contributions of the beta males and opinionated unattractive women.
C. Spotting the submissive females you want to attract by their giggling and discomfort at the conversation.

Of course there is a power dynamic behind it. To actually get into an argument with them is to play their game. Their ability to be tedious doesn't make them more worthy of your time and attention than anybody else in the room is.

almondcake - there are websites recommending this as a pulling strategy?

When people come on here sometimes and go on about evo psych, it isn't just an isolated incidence that a few men are using evo psych to argue against feminism. There is a whole section of the men's right movement who believe in an evo psych based philosophy that they have developed, which they try and live by, judge and predict male and female behaviour by, and control other people by using. This includes sexual partners and potential sexual partners, but isn't limited to picking up women.

The best known of these 'philosophies' is the red pill. They have a reddit and various sites

at basil.

almond - jesus, that's creepy.

It is a dominance thing I think. It is saying 'let me define the terms of the discussion and then watch you jump through whatever hoops I've set you.'

I think if I got sufficiently irritated by this I'd say what Kasey said.

Almond That reddit site is just but equally hilarious.

Modern Women have nothing of lasting value to offer men"

The most common denominator in the comments appears to be the anger at the fact women are not dancing to their tune. It makes them angry,scared and hurt. Women moving beyond their control is seen as a personal slight.

Yes, they're trying to believe that human behaviour can be predicted and controlled to an extent that it is not, then getting angry at women for not being controllable and predictable.

Anyway, I am not advising anyone to read their actual stuff, but there are articles commenting on its existence.

OMG from that site:

"A society structured in this way will lead to an environment in which women may want a man, but they don't need one. It's this very situation which makes healthy relationships between the sexes impossible."

Because "healthy" is not when women want men but need them.

OMG.

Not very surprising.

You know what pisses me off? It's perfectly culturally acceptable for a man to want a woman but not to need her. In fact, men who need women are often seen as a bit wet.

I cant see how needing anyone is healthy at all. Do they know 'nowt about co-dependency?

I feel secure in the fact that DH wouldn't dissolve into a quivering mess of incompetency if anything ever happened to me. I know DS would be taken care of physically and emotionally. Cant really ask for more than that can I?

So does anyone ever go on those funny sites and play Devil's Advocate?

The women's boards on that site are

I go on Reddit quite a bit. I love the creepy ghosty story bits but it is mostly young american males who spend all day watching porn and playing computer games so many boards frequently descend into smut then outright misogyny (loads of racism and homophobia too).

It can be really depressing, however there is nearly always people who stand up to any 'off' comments and this really cheers me up and I think is on the increase. The Red Pill is largely regarded as a big joke over there from the little I've seen, but the ones who do believe really believe.

I've read stories of how they have asserted their dominance over their girlfriends (including driving home from a theme park leaving her stranded because she sent a text to someone when she should have been paying attention to him) and considering vasectomies so a golddigger won't be able to trap him with a child. Frightening stuff.

I use reddit too. There are some great subs like HistoryPorn, AskHistorians and ExplainLikeIm5 but my god there's some awful ones too. I unsubbed from the defaults and stick to the nice subs and MorbidReality. There's TheBluePill which exists only to mock TRP if you feel the need for a swift antidote.

Gosh.
Thinking about it, I don't know many women who do the DA stuff. One or two who did, but they were student politicians in very male environments.

From my personal experience, yes, men do indeed do it in all male company too. Don't know if it's specifically a dominance thing; I've done it with friends/drinking acquaintances when we're trying to sort out views. Including Schrodinger's Rapist, which elicited some "How could anyone think like that".

I used to be rather right wing, though libertarian rather than authoritarian. and I've certainly argued from a radical viewpoint... or what the FCS saw as radical, anyway.

I hadn't seen red pill until that link. Jeez, what a load of tosspots. To strangle a metaphor they appear to see themselves as suns around which tiny planets (women) are meant to revolve either glowing in the summer of their approval or, more often, freezing in the winter of their disapproval.

Of course the only real thing about the above is that they really do believe the sun does shine from their arses.

Before t'internet, despite having plenty of experience of sexism and misogyny in my life, I had never quite believe that men (so-called) like that actually existed. Pure cartoon characters.

I refuse to engage with people playing devil's advocate and I tell them so.

I tend to say that playing DA is to respectful discussion what sarcasm is to wit - the lowest form.

I generally follow up with saying that it is just a slippery way of expressing offensive views that a person is not quite honest enough to 'own' but dishonest enough to hold.

I then change the subject.

People who play DA are a waste of time. They are bargain basement entitled fuckwits.

(disclaimer - I don't really think sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and think it can be funny and self-deprecating but also nasty and cheap)