What would you do if a university student wanted to bring her newborn to class?

[camaleon]

That is really. I have to make a decision regarding this. I need advice. I want to accommodate this student as much as possible but I am very aware of disrupting other students' learning experience.
What would you do?

But the childcare isn't available now so it is irrelevant to the OP's situation.

In terms of making childcare more easily available, I agree that is important. But it wouldn't have been preferable for me. I didn't want to pushed in a situation of isolation and made to work from home, or have my children in childcare more often when they don't really like it. It has been of benefit to me and them that they have been allowed into the university, and that I like that other people do the same. People bringing children in creates a better working environment because it increases the range of people who contribute to collective work and studying experiences. It isn't an either/or. Most people if they can will use both childcare and taking children along to things. Most people will be sensible about it. Having worked abroad in countries with better childcare, this only increases the extent to which children are brought in to work places (in my experience) because it reflects a cultural shift that values families, children and carers.

I mean that the babies aren't well organised or considerate. The mothers are, but the babies just NEED, and it does affect people around behind the mother

Buffy, I genuinely don't understand your comparisons, can you expand a little bit more?

For example- the student in the wheelchair and the student with tourettes both have to be there. The baby simply doesn't.

I wonder whether our idea of a student is of a young, unattached person who has lots of free time to study. And whether we should reconsider?

I think further education naturally demands time, because it's about specialisation and dedication.

For me, the 'feminist thing to do' is not to force women back into a degree just after having a baby. I think we would have far more women in universities with children if the system was more flexible and encouraged/ allowed women to take a semester off, physically and mentally recover, come back and dedicate themselves to their subject.

Dusk, again I really agree with everything you're saying.

I do wonder how much of the divide on this thread is due to different subjects and fields. My particular field is, well, very serious and intense, lots of pondering and philosophising, wrestling with complex problems, etc. At times we're talking about very horrible things. It just seems inappropriate to bring a baby and its possible distractions into that. I might feel differently if the subject was more jolly and informal.

And I do think one needs to think about the unintended consequences -- if it does become completely normal to bring your baby to school and to work, how long before maternity leave becomes seen as something for people 'too weak' to manage work and childcare at the same time? Or as some kind of luxury that clearly isn't necessary because hey, look at all these women doing without it?

Am I the only person reading the thread who hasn't had a baby that would be quiet enough to do this?

I've had 3DCs and they've all been noisy, unsettled little buggers.

You lucky people with quiet, snuggly new-borns!

I mean, it does effect people beyond the parent (if the baby is present).
I feel it, I really do, and I like being in child-free places.
And that is why (apart from night wakings) I was always knackered when I had a small baby attached to me. It is not nearly as tiring being near the baby as being the parent. but it is there.

The person with the wheelchair hasn't brought anyone with them, is what I mean. The baby is a person, who hasn't been through a university admissions procedure or even basic social conditioning

Eleanor, I have been a migrant mother who discovered she was pregant after accepting a job in the Uk with zero family support (my family does not live here, I knew nobody); no maternity leave; and a very difficult boss. As I said before I seriously considered a termination only because of this. And I had another 2 years old. She could attend nursery. The newborn could not.

You cannot always arrange childcare, not even for a couple of presentations and to feel the support of anybody is really important.

of course the 'feminist thing to do' is not to force women back into a degree just after having a baby. Nor it is to force them to stay at home based on your preconceptions.

I cited the wheelchair scenario in relation to the comment about health and safety problems raised by the presence of a newborn in a classroom.

I am finding the debate, well beyond the particular circumstances of this case, really interesting.

I would feel awful if I was banished from a university lecture because I had a baby and told "just watch it on skype" - it's not the same, you don't have the same interaction and presumably if the mother wants to come back to university, part of that is the social side? I don't mean drinking and clubbing obviously, but just seeing people and interacting with people and discussing academic ideas. Being able to ask questions to the lecturer and having someone else ask a follow up question you hadn't thought of - you wouldn't get that through email.

I think options are important. I also think society is terrified of babies and especially of breastfeeding, when it should be a normal thing for small babies to be part of everyday life. Mothers do need time to recover from birth, but not everyone wants to be shut away at home, and if you want to go out and be part of things it should be an option.

DuskandShiver, if a student is unable to do theoretical physics due to social limitations that mean they can't deal with social interaction based on facial expressions and seating arrangements, that would be a matter dealt with by the disability office and the lecturer would be able to take that into account when planning how lectures and seminars were organised so that student could be accommodated. But in general, all other students do have to be able to deal with emotional and social needs of others, because university is an inclusive and collective social learning experience! It also is about turning up and meaning well for many students, not about achieving some kind of intellectual greatness, and both are fine. Lecturers cater to a range of needs and abilities.

The baby question is a different matter, but I don't recognise your description of university life.

myitchybeaver... there is no way I would have been able to keep my newborn children in a lecture. They were not quiet by any strecht of imagination. HOwever, many other newborns are.

I certainly can take my kids to any meeting/conference/lecture now (7 & 9). Both my partner and I have had to take them to some of these events and you would have not known they were there.

i'm late to this thread, but just wanted to point out that I've chaired a day of talks at a UK university with a baby in my arms, and also given talks at other universities with baby in arms. In each case, I had a stand-by friend who could take baby out if she cried. But she didn't and it all went smoothly.

Again, if you cannot find childcare for an examined part of your course- how on earth did you complete it to the best of your ability?

myitchybeaver, no you are not the only one!

I went to a social meet-up with a 4 month old, there was another woman there with a similar-aged baby. The babies were lovely and very charming and happy, perhaps because there were so many people giving them so many smiles and eye contact. You could not imagine more socially convenient babies (I was very relieved about how mine was behaving).

One of the women, who could not take her eyes off them, said "It is amazing how well they are programmed to get the attention they need". That is what babies do - they will grab onto all eye contact going, force you to coo at them (if you have an ounce of humanity) and if no one is there to do that they will get upset. And they will demand attention.

When I had small babies, I felt happy and supported when I was with other people who were helping to keep my baby going with their social and emotional energy, and drained and exhausted when it was down to me alone for any period of time. We should recognise that this is what is happening, even when people are glad to do it. It's not compatible with heavy theoretical concentration on other stuff. This is why people with babies are always being advised to get out and about - to benefit from other people's social energy. It's not free. It might be willingly given, but it's not like oxygen, that when you breathe it you're not taking it from someone else.

Traditionally men shut themselves away from all that, and women supported each other and each other's children. Much as I love love love having children I don't want to give up my access to the space to think that men have, by being allowed to be without them.

But that goes back to the individual vs the collective, doesn't it?

I can see how it could be great for the mother to attend with her baby. But it might not be best for the rest of the class, especially if a precedent is set and you end up with multiple babies in the classroom.

Fundamentally people go to school to learn, and as Dusk said, they should be given the best opportunity to do so. The classroom is not the same as the shop or the bus or the cafe -- people should be able to focus as much as possible.

Things like skype seem to offer a good compromise because the mother can still learn and the other students aren't distracted. And there's no reason the mother couldn't participate in the discussion, if the lecturer cares enough to bring her into it.

This is rather like the SAHM/WOHM debate or the breast vs. bottle. People are essentially saying that some women should be denied the opportunity to make a choice to take a baby into university with them on the basis that if one person does it we'll all be forced to do it. The issue is that women should have the choice to make arrangements best for them, not that we should all be made to do the exact same thing.

I think the argument 'I like child free places' is justification for nothing at all if the child is making no demand on you whatsoever. Otherwise people who worked in customer facing jobs could refuse to serve people with kids - doctors, opticians, pharmacists etc. They all have to concentrate on complex things in the presence of children.

Am I the only person reading the thread who hasn't had a baby that would be quiet enough to do this?

Nope. It would a bloody challenge for DD to make as much noise as humanely possible!

Had my first DS in the 2nd year of uni, on several occasions he attended lectures and tutorials with me due to temporary childcare issues- I asked each time if this was ok and said I would leave if he caused any disturbance, and no one minded. This was almost 20 years ago and DS is a student himself now...

The issue is that women should have the choice to make arrangements best for them

In a university setting, you have to consider the other students too, especially these days when people are paying extortionate tuition fees.

You cannot rely on a baby not to cry. It's just impossible. It's not fair to bring them into a situation where they could disrupt other people's learning. As a one off, of course, but not as a long-term plan, and certainly not during assessments.

I don't want to give up my access to the space to think that men have, by being allowed to be without them

Yes, for me this is the crux of it too.

I have taken my newborn in a sling to university. Lectures & tutorials.
No problem at all, pretty much slept & fed.

"It also is about turning up and meaning well for many students, not about achieving some kind of intellectual greatness, and both are fine. Lecturers cater to a range of needs and abilities.

The baby question is a different matter, but I don't recognise your description of university life."

I went to a very good university a long time ago. I think this may be to do with the increased access to university for some who would have found another path after leaving school, 20 years ago. "turning up and meaning well" really did not cut it.

"I think the argument 'I like child free places' is justification for nothing at all if the child is making no demand on you whatsoever."

There are situations where we do all have to get along - trains, shops, churches, friend's houses, etc - but this isn't like that.

For the record I did think that in this case the answer was to let the mother do it, out of kindness, if she wants to. But bigger picture, I think academic space - thinking space - is incompatible with baby-care space.

I wish my work was more parent-friendly in many ways, but not including people actually having their children here. I just want to be able to do both, properly, at different times.