What would you do if a university student wanted to bring her newborn to class?

[camaleon]

That is really. I have to make a decision regarding this. I need advice. I want to accommodate this student as much as possible but I am very aware of disrupting other students' learning experience.
What would you do?

Goodness, I really hope I've misinterpreted this.

I don't think it's fair on the student to present (and be graded!!) on something while her baby is there. Have you any idea of what you'll do if the baby cries and she has to leave? What about the rest of the team she is working with?

They are her own presentations but prepared and discussed within a group. I cannot made this 'private'/ in my office without changing the nature of the assessment.

And I still don't see how this is relevant in relation to my original question.

There is a massive difference between an assessed piece of work and a lecture.

It is much fairer to exclude her all togther Santana. Even when she claims to be able to do it

There is SantanaLopez but I don't think it is my role to tell her she can't do this because I know better.
Need to leave now. Will keep reading later.

I've presented to 35 people with my 2 year old holding my hand the entire time! It was to kids at my daughters school - and my daughter was primed to entertain her sister if she caused trouble - but it was fine.

I can't see the assessed part of the students presentation being longer than 15 mins just for logistical reasons. So schedule her to speak first - and have the option of her swapping to a later slot if her baby is not asleep. Suggest
To her that she nominates a buddy to take baby out on the small off chance of a meltdown while mum is speaking.

I claimed I could learn Spanish on my maternity leave...

I don't think you are saying to her that you know better. You are saying that you don't know what you will be able to do to help her if she has to leave during her assessment. The chances of her having to leave, with a newborn, are, quite frankly, high.

I actually don't know what I would do in that situation. It's definitely completely different to the original question, there's a lot more at stake.

Of course it's relevant -- how could it not be?

There's a huge difference between someone sitting in the back of the class listening to a lecture and ducking out if need be, and someone having to give an assessed presentation. I mean, I admire all of you who can stand on your head and juggle cats while breastfeeding, but not all newborns are placid little souls 24 hours a day.

Yes, there are all sorts of possible distractions in class -- and surely the goal is to limit them, for the good of all.

I don't think it has to be 'have a child and you must interrupt your studies'. Continuing your studies and being physically in the classroom are not synonymous. You can study on your own, you can see your lecturer outside of class, you can follow lectures on skype and podcasts -- all of this is still learning, without disrupting the learning of others. That seems fair to me. It might not be ideal but it is also temporary and hopefully manageable with a lot of support.

To say that if women can't bring their babies to class they can't continue their education is just so short-sighted. There are all sorts of ways to address this if you want to be creative rather than dogmatic.

With due respect, presenting to a primary school audience and doing a university-level presentation is not the same thing.

I would give it a go if she wants to. I took my baby into work when she was 2 weeks old, as I had a research project that needed finishing. It worked out well, I got it finished and then went back on mat leave.

You could try it out, if it doesn't work, there will be protests from other students and the trial fails, or it is a success and emboldens others to do similar.

Sorry if I have missed this, but is your student considering this in pregnancy, or does she now have the newborn?

I am not sure that the kindest way to manage the horrific damocles' sword that women find hovering over their heads wrt to career vs. childbearing is to say "fine, women can do everything they have to, and bring their babies". I needed maternity leave. Physically, emotionally. I needed it.

However, if she already has her baby, and is saying from a position of knowledge that she really wants a chance to present, I think the correct thing to do is allow her the chance, not to be one of those people slamming doors in faces. Bigger picture, though, it's not a solution. If someone had said to me "you can keep your job after the baby - if you come back to work straigh away - keep the newborn with you, that's fine by me" that would have amounted to dismissal.

I agree very much, Dusk.

I think the best ways to improve work-life balance and make work/education more family-friendly is not bringing children into work but making it possible for parents to achieve their goals without having to always physically be in work or school.

I don't think we should assume women can't do things because they have a baby. But I think assuming women can do everything the same even when they have a baby can also be damaging, because it's just not true for everyone.

I don't understand the dodgy tummy comparison. It would be rather wonderful if you got 9 months notice of a 3 day bout of D&V!

I would really respect someone who was trying to come to classes and maintain their studies with a newborn.

I would not be impressed by someone being unable to arrange a babysitter for 2 presentations which were graded and counted towards their degree. How does she plan to take exams or go to job interviews? How on earth does she plan to study if she can't leave the child for the presentation?

I brought my baby to a few classes. Small groups, with agreement from group members and teachers.

The class was one which was rearranged from the original timetable to be after the creche closing time.

He sat at my feet and played during a couple of additional revision sessions.

As a tiny newborn when dh and I were both students we used to swap him in the corridors between classes so whoever wasn't in class had him. However every fortnight there was an hour where we overlapped and I took him to class until dh could come and get him.

So long as the student leaves if he is being disruptive then fine.

However, for her presentations she might struggle a bit more. If he stays asleep/quiet then I have no doubt she could present but there is no guarantee he won't decide to poo/fuss/want to feed at the wrong time and it won't just be her work suffering it will be her whole group so it might be more practical for her if she can get a friend to take baby for a walk or something during her presentation.

I would just leave it up to the student to decide whether it is in her best interests to present with the baby or make other arrangements. She surely knows better what her personal circumstances are and what the consequences will be than a bunch of random people on the Internet.

I have seen babies and children in lectures, the university library etc and honestly don't think a lot of students would finish their degrees if there were lots of people doing this ooh health and safety, are we insured, somebody else (but not me personally) might complain and we have to think of their entirely speculative feelings sort of thing. It very much reminds me of the arguments that rumble on about Muslim science students wearing the hijab in labs, students with disabilities requiring a note taker with a lap top etc, etc and of course every argument that has ever been put forward for why women shouldn't be educated. Yes, there are potential problems in all these situations, but there are with everything. Too much of this is assuming the worst when it will probably all be fine.

I've even seen staff to out and take scientific data on field trips with young babies in slings, which is their decision. All this woman is doing is giving a presentation, which she already believes she can handle with a baby. The most likely outcome is that if the baby does wake up and make noise mid presentation, another student would take it out, because most people are not self absorbed. Which means one student would miss the learning experience of this woman's presentation, as opposed to everyone missing it if the student can't turn up because she has a newborn.

Buffy, it's an interesting thing to think about, but I would argue the difference is that a student with a disability cannot remove that disability, whereas it is possible to arrange childcare for a baby.

If gyms and rec centres have creches, why can't universities?

In this case one compromise might be that the student can bring the baby to lectures, provided she ducks out if need be, but should really arrange childcare for the presentations, both in her own interest and that of others. I think it's particularly unfair to expect her group to do their own assessed presentations with the possible distraction of a baby, given it's not their choice to take on that risk.

I don't think a baby and a disability are comparable, but a lot of accommodations put in place for disabled students are not essential. Students could complete degrees without some of them, it is just more ethical to make their studies easier if we can. The same applies in this situation; it isn't in theory impossible for this woman to get childcare (although the reality may be that it is impossible); it would just make her life easier if you let her attend with baby.

Childcare only takes from 3 months. In terms of the precedent set - childcare can also fall through, or become prohibitively expensive, leaving the student no choice.

( and the same DD that slept thorough conferences, lectures and meetings, and held my hand while I presented, screamed blue murder when left in the gym crèche - leadIng to the lifeguard being paged to ask me to come and get her. So I walked right through the centre dripping wet to get her. Childcare isn't a magic bullet for working mothers, any more than being able to bring your baby is).

Yes, but that's why I think the answer is to make childcare easier and cheaper, or make it easier for students to study from home, or to get deferments or adjusted assignments. There are lots of solutions besides bringing babies into the classroom.

Buffy, I struggle with the "I wonder whether the idea that it requires a total change in a mother's life has to be everyone's reality". Not with the wondering, but where it would lead in a capitalist world. The tone kind of reminds me of the "blue sky thinking" you hear in the workplace that usually leads to about a third of your team getting sacked. "So where is it written that we actually need a whole separate contracts admin team?" you know the sort of thing.

It depends on changing from what. I would happily take a no-longer-quite-newborn baby on my back into certain kinds of work situation (chatty, informal, I know everyone reasonably well, not too intellectually demanding, a certain amount of routine work done with the hands, no strict timetabling that will stop me pottering off to change a nappy or stopping to bf when needed) but not others (negotiating something tough, designing something, creating systems, working to tight deadlines, doing things in real time which are irrevocable should I want to change them later). It's a long time since I was at university but that second group of things looks a lot like what university used to be like.

And I think it should be. I think people at university should be able to work to the best of their intellectual ability, not just show up and mean well and put the hours in.

I am a feminist and I think that looking after a newborn baby is bloody hard work. I welcome the idea that I don't have to do that and much else, for a little while.

I find babies knackering. I am introvert, and a baby is another person, and having that demand on me all the time is a significant drain on my mental and emotional resources. Some people are all "the more the merrier" about every situation - and if they are studying to their personality are perhaps learning in a subject where it is entirely appropriate to consider it part of the eventual job to be organised and cheerful while people are making constant small and large demands on you from all directions.

Actual academic study in its traditional sense is something entirely different. Being unable to do theoretical physics while someone is even looking at you quizzically wondering if that chair is taken, is not making you unsuitable to be a theoretical physicist. (I am that kind of person.) I kind of think it is fine to have enclaves where people only have to do their goddamned subject. All the people in the class that is. And don't have to juggle emotional and social needs of others at the same time.

Your student in a wheelchair, your student with Tourettes, your student with a long term illness are still individual single human beings who ultimately are well organised and considerate people who don't infict emotional neediness on those around them. Bringing a baby into the mix is bringing a great big ball of needy. They are exhausting.