What would you do if a university student wanted to bring her newborn to class?

[camaleon]

That is really. I have to make a decision regarding this. I need advice. I want to accommodate this student as much as possible but I am very aware of disrupting other students' learning experience.
What would you do?

The baby doesn't but presumably its mother (who is the actual student) could / ought to / does have as much right to be there and have her needs accommodated as disabled students? Doesn't she? Not being physically disabled but having struggled to study and work with young kids, I may well be missing something. If so, I apologise, of course.

No, I think there's a fundamental difference. A woman doesn't need her child with her to study. A disabled student needs a wheelchair to get into the building or an interpreter to communicate.

You don't have to complete it "to the best of your ability" if what in fact you mean is that you are completing it "as though you were childless".

If you aren't able to dedicate your time to a university degree, why are you there?

"People are essentially saying that some women should be denied the opportunity to make a choice to take a baby into university with them on the basis that if one person does it we'll all be forced to do it. The issue is that women should have the choice to make arrangements best for them, not that we should all be made to do the exact same thing."

this is where liberalism breaks down. It's not one person's choice in a vacuum. It's a dynamic that effects everyone.

Or to paraphrase:

"having a child-free section of a lecture theatre is like having a no-pissing section of the swimming pool"

I think we do have to make rules (on sound ethical and practical bases) and stick to them, because making everything all about choice is just the road to neo liberal shitty disaster for everyone.

I believe in:

minimum wage
minimum age for working
mandatory health and safety at work
laws about pollution etc

There are loads of things I believe in that fly in the face of "choice" because "choice" is just "I can afford it, and devil take the hindmost"

Santana, you have taken my statement out of context. I was talking about the issue of what is best for mothers between two situations. I had talked about the other students elsewhere.

As for the rest of the thread,

The individual vs. collective pretty much sums it up. I consider children are part of society and should be included as much as possible, unless there is a very, very good reason not to. Anything else excludes women and children. I think taking a collective responsibility for children is the core of feminism, and anything else is a feminism only for childless women and wealthy Western women.

The actual situation is very specific and only the mother and the OP can really know and judge, but the wider implications of what people are saying about mothers and children is interesting, because it is ultimately about whether feminism is only for women who can act like old fashioned men, or for all women.

Some of this has gone way beyond legitimate distractions and into just not really liking to be around kids.

"Isn't academic achievement essentially based upon the model of the lone scholar? The male, rational genius who does deep thoughts and then writes dense papers?

There are alternatives. Achievement by collaboration, etc.

You could say that strict adherence to the study like a single man philosophy is contributing to the problem of cultural and intellectual femicide. "

There are alternatives, and maybe it is time to let other models get a look in
But I take issue with your genderisation of different ways of doing things. I am definitely a lone deep thinker and very female.

If being a woman, or having children, meant that I could only take part in writing-by-committee my head would explode with irritation and boredom. Well, I wouldn't be able to do any.

Well eleanor perhaps I don't see thinking and childcare as mutually exclusive.

I am not just talking about 'thinking'. I genuinely don't see how someone can possibly contemplate undertaking a university course, the masses of research, writing, studying and classes, without someone else taking care of the baby.

I should probably add- someone else taking care of the baby for at least some of the time.

"I consider children are part of society and should be included as much as possible, unless there is a very, very good reason not to."

like trying to have three consecutive logical thoughts in a straight line for once goddammit! That is reason why not to include your children in your studies.

" Anything else excludes women and children."

Only if you insist women are the only people responsible for children. Where is their father? When is it his turn to be driven mad by singing Old MacDonald 100 times in a row? When his dp is at university, that's when. For instance.

" I think taking a collective responsibility for children is the core of feminism, and anything else is a feminism only for childless women and wealthy Western women."

taking responsibilty for doesn't mean taking them everywhere.

I don't think you think that a surgeon should only work with her children thoughtfully provided with something to stand on to watch the action, occasionally tugging on the elbow with the scalpel to say "mummy where is my red crayon? I am trying to draw the operation but I need more red." I just think we differ about when you need to be without your, or anyone else's, children to actually concentrate. And maybe university isn't like it used to be. Maybe you have to do masters now to do anything hard. What a fucking waste of money. It's a racket.

It's a bit late to discover you don't have childcare and you need to defer the course for a couple of semesters. As a one-off, not regularly.

I think you should allow it on the basis that she will need to step out if the baby kicks off.
Grown adults will need to learn to manage external distractions. The novelty of a baby sleeping/feeding will soon wear off.
If the student has to step out/is late to class tending to her child, are you providing any other support ? Copies of your lecture notes etc?
Presumably if you don't allow it, she will have to defer or drop out. What happens if she can't manage it having tried it, will you allow her to defer then or is she then at risk of failing the course. You need to think this through properly.

Buffy, well if you don't buy into it, don't reproduce it. You present it as if you are saying

"women work better like this, so we are being anti-woman unless we facilitate cosy group chats with babies at them, in universities".

If you are just saying

"maybe we could do stuff in groups as well as alone"

then it is not a remotely gendered point, and has nothing to do with a traditional association of scholasticism with masculinity, or rebutting same

DuskandShiver, I'm not arguing for choice feminism; I Don't agree with it. Of course choices don't take place in a vacuum and some are bad choices for society as a whole. I don't think your 'choice' to have child free environments available is a feminist one and you think the opposite. That is a kind of argument about what direction society should go in where we disagree with each other.

The other kind of argument is one where people want women's choices curtailed not because they consider either choice bad but because they think one option should fit all women. I think there are situations where women's choices are curtailed unnecessarily because of a social expectation that there is one way of organising things that works best for all mothers, which is not the case. I can see why women hold the legitimate fear that if one woman breastfeeds we'll all be forced to do it, if one woman goes back to work full time, we'll all be made to do it, but that is an issue of people not accepting that different choices work for different families and not being too prescriptive.

The latter is the choice restriction I disagree with, reducing choice not because the choice is unethical but because women (or any other minority) must be stereotyped to all want/have/require the exact same thing.

DuskandShiver, yes, there are situations where for genuine health and safety reasons children can't be present. There are jobs I can't do for general health and safety reasons because I'm not physically capable, including your example of bring a surgeon. There are courses I've taught where children could not attend because they are lab based.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a wider range of students attending university. I believe that the vast majority benefit of the courses are high quality. I don't think very high academic ability is required for an MSc either. It is mostly diligence and commitment.

I personally don't think we are ever going to have a society where women don't make up the vast majority of primary carers of young children. If we were in a situation where as many men were primary carers as women, and we were using that as an excuse to exclude, discriminate and impoverish primary carers, then I would be as opposed to that as I am to the current situation and certainly wouldn't see it as a feminist achievement.

I know have to go, but think this is an interesting discussion. Apologies to the OP for going a bit off topic.

Some people genuinely do not have the option of "someone else to look after the baby", some people don't want that option, some people can only manage it for some of the time....none of them needs to be excluded from university.

But university is not there to step in where you can't get a baby sitter. It's there to provide you with further education.

I've got 2 degrees and I've had 2 children. I genuinely do not understand how anyone could undertake any academic study with no childcare.

Would you allow a pet dog in the lectures? Not a guide dog but a pet?

The guide dog in my lectures used to sit and fart, it was disgusting.

What's the link between a dog and a baby?

Well Eleanor some of us do, or with very little childcare, I took ds1 with me when tiny and once he was bigger I had the bare minimum ie only tutorials and lectures I had to attend where he was in childcare. Cost mainly as even though it was subsidized it was still expensive.

So I studied whilst he played, read whilst bfeeding and when he slept he hardly slept until he was three yes old and yes it was hard work, and I was knackered at times, but I enjoyed it and have fabulous memories of his baby and toddler years on campus, he took his first steps in the uni bar (the back bar non smoking). I made one of my very best friends during that time and we both managed to graduate babies in tow.

The system needs to be flexible, many units already (as evidenced by this thread and experiences of others) let little babies attend some lectures and seminars. Its never a long term issue, as they get bigger they can go to nursery, are easier to leave etc.

But for some parents the flexibility of being able to take a little one until old enough for nursery or in event of childcare letting you down is vital in them succeeding and completing their degree.

Is it ideal? Maybe not but life is far from ideal, we all muddle through best we can.

But you can complete studies with young children, even without childcare, hell thousands do through the OU. I had no more than four hours a week and I bust a gut keeping up with reading, getting copies of notes etc for lectures I missed. Not ideal but entirely possible.

This student wants the opportunity to try, if she tries and it doesn't work then work on option b, but letting her have a go for a few short weeks, op says til easter? May help and make her life easier.

I echo what Bertie said a few pages ago re social side etc as well.