Just been mildly hit on by some sleazy old man ...

[ButThereAgain]

... which is a ridiculous and stupid thing to happen to a middle-aged woman out walking her dog in the woods, but which gave me this huge dual-carriageway of memory to the sorts of things that used to happen to me (as to almost every young women) when I was very young, when men would seize on my timid politeness as a way of wheedling at me and blaming me for the situations their insistence created.

At the time I was naive and like a million other young women I would blame myself for whatever awkward situation arose. But now, with the perspective of maturity, I can see much more clearly how it works -- how they engineer things so that you start to see their pressuring of you as something you have yourself created.

I'm not talking of anything remotely close to sexual assault -- just a kind of insistent, "flattering" attention. If you are like me, you start off being very polite and kind, and once you realise how pressing and inappropriately demanding they are being, the necessary rudeness (to make them fuck off) seems likes such a reversal that you feel guilty, almost buying in to their perception of you as having somehow "led them on" and then rebuffed them.

And all the "compliments" are structured to try and make you think that your alleged loveliness (I'm not remotely lovely, just an old hag in a muddy waterproof coat) takes agency away from them and makes you yourself to blame.

Even as a mature woman I couldn't bring myself to tell him explicitly to get lost. When I think back to my young self, and to all the current young women, just being polite and suffering the consequences, it makes me furious.

This was just unwelcome pressuring conversation, not assault. Just the ordinary low-level stuff that you forget about when you are old but which is routine when you are a young woman.

Just getting it off my chest, really. I actually do feel guilty about rebuffing this old man so that he doesn't get what he wants from me (namely, I think, the opportunity to talk "flatteringly" to me for ages while he thinks his lecherous thoughts).

I get your dog point

It struck a nerve as I have a very pretty dog who happens to be a bit timid. The number of times that people want to pet her because she looks like a big teddy is fine but they are incapable of reading her body language. To me, it's clear when she's sending piss off signals but continue to push at her and she snaps.

So, I warn people but the number of times that they ignore me is incredible. They point out that they're dog people, they tell me that dogs love them, they take offence when she cowers away, they tell me that her reaction is unusual.

No, her reaction is that of a dog who doesn't want the attention but it continues to be forced upon her. So we now avoid busy places and can be found wandering dark woods at antisocial times rather ironically. I've had to modify our behaviour to deal with other people's inappropriate behaviour and it's a little bit tedious. I do it because ultimately she could do real harm if provoked too far.

All because she's pretty. Not sure where I was going with this either

Just out of curiosity is it more likely to be a man that pushes your dog's boundaries Blistory?

Interestingly enough I remember the first time I took DH 'home' in the North West for a weekend and went clubbing. He came back from the loos white as a sheet because men had chatted to him at the urinals (about the football) and this just wasn't the done thing down South (apparently). He's a fairly laid back and accepting sort but this really freaked him out. I couldn't get out of him why this was so other than "you don't talk to people in the loos. You just don't" (and he's been snogged a billion times by our many gay friends so certainly not homophobic).

So what you say about men not liking other men talking to them is certainly true outside Merseyside, Derval ;) One wonders why a certain section of them then think that women will welcome their chat if a men wouldn't...

First port of call has got to be not to take personally when rebuffed socially. I personally don't mind being viewed as a potential threat if it makes people feel safer. What concerns me though is there are plenty of predators who can come across as perfect gentlemen.

I think it's also worth canvassing a lot of my male friends. After all a lot of what has been raised here touches upon discussions I've had with female friends. I can see it is a problem.

I have that problem too, Blistory, with my dog. He is a PRT who will growl if stroked by a stranger -- and presumably if he was pushed hard enough he would eventually snap. I always ask people not to stroke him and it is amazing how many people will just go right ahead anyway, imagining that they will be the one to cure him with their magical dog-friendlyness.

I think men and women do it equally (in response to Dervel's question). And of course women as well as men can be completely unempathetic in conversation with humans, failing to see (or not caring about) the conversational signals and body language signals that we give off to try and impose some conversational boundaries. But that is a different business from the specific, gendered, intrusion of a man who is requiring a woman to participate in some age-old game of intrusive sexualised attention. And the latter is so very highly backed up by a whole culture of misinterpreting that insistence as a legitimate form of (...what is the right word?) courtship behaviour that it is much harder to escape unless you work hard to disavow certain internalised norms of behaviour.

I keep thinking (in connection with this thread) of certain traditional, ballroomy-type forms of dance which replicate "courtship" behaviour. A lot of it has the man insistently invading a reticent woman's personal space until he "wins" her over -- it is a kind of glamorised/aestheticised intrusion. There is a moment of it near the beginning of the Michael Jackson "Thriller" video for example.

I hadn't thought of the dog connection that Blistory makes. Of course dog trainers routinely warn us to be perceptive about our dogs' attempts to communicate boundaries -- because if we aren't we will only have ourselves to blame if we eventually get bitten. We need that same warning to be hammered out to men: if you keep on pressing women conversationally in this sexual/ritual way you will get bitten (by rudeness) and you will have yourself to blame!

Btw (OP here) I live in a part of the UK where people are very very friendly and chatty, and I frequently have perfectly happy and lovely conversations with men when walking my dog. I don't feel exploited by that or vulnerable even when deeply alone in the woods. There is all the difference in the world between friendly chatting and the kind of sexually influenced conversational pestering that this thread is about.

I think that men who like to feel that perfectly innocent chatting is forbidden by the need to show that you respect women are sometimes deliberately missing the point. Because it isn't hard to chat without being seen as sexually intrusive or a threat.

Well I think we're getting to the heart of the matter now. If I go up and start chatting to a woman ONLY because I find her attractive, then I would quite frankly feel embarrassed. If I that is the only component it's all going to feel icky quite quickly as a man is basically telegraphing physical interest and nothing else.

You're right OP - I have absolutely no problem with a strange man approaching me to ask about my dog. It seems genuine and is quite common amongst dog walkers.

Of course, I also have my dog with me so maybe that contributes to the feeling of safety. Which I think goes back to Biggedy's post - he was with his wife when the DJ incident took place so that may have impacted on her reaction.

And yes, it is mostly men who overstep the mark with my dog - she's a big girl and I think men see it as a challenge. She reacts much less to women in any event and they tend to shrug and wander off if I ask them not to touch her. Men seem to need to prove themselves but don't appreciate that she is seriously distressed by it.

And don't get me started on the number of times a man has pointed out to me that a wee thing like me must struggle to control a dog that size.

And quite right ButThereAgain, it is perfectly possible to have a friendly chat. The more I digest this thread the more obvious things are for example:

Commenting on or asking about a strangers relationship status raises a red flag. (I never did this on intuition, but reading this clarified why this is crucial).

I would also tend to err away from any comments regarding appearance (although as a much younger man I did a bit, though certainly not as a conversation opener).

Personally I don't think nice guys will have a problem, but I think there is disconnect as some men take it personally on the assumption they might be a predator, but reading this thread (and others like it) I can see why it is perfectly rational for women to think this way. Schroedingers rapist being a good article on this,

I am trying to coach a nice guy I know, who hasn't had much luck with women so far, and I raised that with him. That a woman might reject him not because he is unlovable, but social minefields being such there are sides to this he may not have considered. Basically not to take rejection personally, and work on building confidence.

I think men need to recognise that in situations where a woman is vulnerable, it's never really okay to initiate contact. Simply because they run the risk of scaring her and that's not on. So if I drop my glove while walking home alone in the dark, avoid the temptation to shout after me, 'Oi, love, come back' as that just raised my heartbeat last night. And please, don't come running after me. It was nice of him to want to get my glove back to me but I sat shaking in the car afterwards for a good couple of minutes. Having immediately locked the doors as I got in. And felt angry with myself for feeling so vulnerable and hating that the sounds of footsteps coming after me caused instant panic.

In social situations - men need to determine whether that contact is genuinely welcomed. Lack of eye contact, one word answers, looking over your shoulder, not initiating conversation - all indicate that the attention isn't welcome so time to retreat.

Random comments such as the now infamous DJ's should never be acceptable because you have no idea of knowing if it causes offense or upset and it's so utterly needless.

I think it is important for men to question why they are approaching the woman as well. Is there genuinely any real likelihood of the woman stopping to chat to you and/or give you her phone number at that particular point in time? If not, then you approaching her is nothing more than an ego boost for yourself in some way. For example, when I am out running, or riding my bike, or struggling along with as much shopping as I can carry, I am unlikely to want to stop and engage in a flirtatious conversation. (It also occurred to me that the only place I have never been hit on whilst doing sport is at the swimming pool. I wonder why that would be ).

Reading body language and giving the woman an 'out' and respecting it if she at all looks uninterested are basics. I hate the argument that some women like to play hard to get and therefore men should always push things a bit. Really? In the very first interaction you have with a woman she is game-playing and messing with your mind - if that is the case then give her the swerve and congratulate yourself on dodging a bullet!

I have had some more thoughts about things that were posted last night so will be back in a bit to post more.

Ok I started this post several times, as I would be the sort to seek to return your glove, and I have racked my brains, and occurs I can probably just ask. Would you rather I just left the glove, or is there a protocol I could follow that would get you your glove back without your heart skipping a beat?

Shouting out/ running after you I can definately see would be a problem, and over something like a glove it might be best left. However what if the object was something expensive/ essential like a smartphone? (A smartphone might be easy as I could easily keep it until someone phones it and make arrangements to get it back to its proper owner). However keeping it for that purpose could lead cause to accusations of theft by finding, and it may also be out of battery.

I guess his shouting that I had dropped something would have been better as that way I at least had the choice of weighing up the risks ( which I fully accept is more than likely, no risk at all)

Bear in mind this was a dark path between the station and the carpark and I'm already on edge about the 5 minute walk to the car ( thanks Scotrail - a little light would be nice) so even before he comes on the scene, I'm already alert and on edge. He wasn't the reason I was primed for something bad to happen, absolutely not, but he obviously had no awareness that it was even an issue. Poor sod was doing something nice and had me react as if the hounds of hell were after me.

Would I want my phone back ?- logically, yes. Would I go back for it ? - probably not in the same circumstances as last night.

So, I think what I'd like is to know the reason for the contact so I can determine for myself. And for the good men to realise that it's not their fault so not to take it personally. Just to be aware.

it's depressing, isn't it ?

The damage done by a very small minority of men affects all of us regardless of gender. No matter how many good men I encounter, no matter how many positive experiences I have, the reality is that I cannot escape from the belief that I am vulnerable as a woman and that it is up to me to protect myself. And in doing so, I upset men like Dervel or make them ashamed of their sex. Everyone loses.

The other dimension to this that is worth mentioning is that it's not as if men being approached by women doesn't happen. It happens to me all the time, which is what I am trying work out with my shy friend of mine. I am no oil painting, and objectively he is better looking than I am, better presented etc. I am at a loss.

I haven't objectively observed him in his interactions with strangers, but we have a mutual female friend in common who recently became single, and although she values him immensely as a friend, she confided to me that he was making her feel uncomfortable, I told her I didn't think anything would happen, but (thanks to reading threads like these) I didn't dismiss her gut feeling, as to be brutally honest I think I have a real blindspot somewhere in these matters, and told her so. In any case her uncomfortable feeling had arisen from him inviting himself round frequently, and hanging around way past where she was comfortable him being there. To which of course her immediate response was to actually blame herself for the whole scenario.

My reaction was that she was in no way guilty of anything in the slightest, and he had misread things and had inadvertently caused the problem. I offered to have a quiet word with him about it, but suggested it might be best coming from her. She agreed, but he then poured out his feelings to her (which was the last thing I expected, but she of course saw it coming a mile off). It's all a bit awkward at the minute, but he is now quite depressed about it all. I've already had one pep talk with him in general terms, but I am resolved to approach the subject in a more specific way, as evidently he thought his need to spill out his feelings took precedence over her getting over a long term relationship (we're talking a matter of a few weeks).

It is alarming how often women's boundaries are dismissed, and also I would say a racing certainty I've done it myself at some point.

Oh I am not ashamed of my sex, I think this is a problem we can sort if we approach it together! A lot of the problem appears to be ignorance and that is correctable.

Sorry that should read I am ashamed of the actions of some of my gender, but not my gender itself, but as you pointed out the trick is I am in no way taking any of this personally, which I think is the first step.

Maybe the glove analogy is a simple awareness, maybe rather than an "oi love..." Shouted out, an "excuse me I think you dropped your glove/phone", and maybe even cross the road so you yourself can retrieve said item, and that's the sum total of the encounter.

You seem to be in a bit of a tizzy about this Derval , four posts in a row .
leave well alone I say .

It is alarming how often women's boundaries are dismissed

Exactly. If, when someone talks to you, they first show you that they will be totally fine if you don't want to talk back, then there is much less chance of a threat being felt.

With the dropped phone - "excuse me, you dropped your phone. I'll put it on this wall here for you." - and walk away shows that you are returning the phone and want nothing else.

I think it is a very , very sad fact of life these days but women have to be very careful where they they venture alone. There are sometimes odd people around . Call me silly .

Well, that's me fucked then, since I have to travel to work every day.