Just been mildly hit on by some sleazy old man ...

[ButThereAgain]

... which is a ridiculous and stupid thing to happen to a middle-aged woman out walking her dog in the woods, but which gave me this huge dual-carriageway of memory to the sorts of things that used to happen to me (as to almost every young women) when I was very young, when men would seize on my timid politeness as a way of wheedling at me and blaming me for the situations their insistence created.

At the time I was naive and like a million other young women I would blame myself for whatever awkward situation arose. But now, with the perspective of maturity, I can see much more clearly how it works -- how they engineer things so that you start to see their pressuring of you as something you have yourself created.

I'm not talking of anything remotely close to sexual assault -- just a kind of insistent, "flattering" attention. If you are like me, you start off being very polite and kind, and once you realise how pressing and inappropriately demanding they are being, the necessary rudeness (to make them fuck off) seems likes such a reversal that you feel guilty, almost buying in to their perception of you as having somehow "led them on" and then rebuffed them.

And all the "compliments" are structured to try and make you think that your alleged loveliness (I'm not remotely lovely, just an old hag in a muddy waterproof coat) takes agency away from them and makes you yourself to blame.

Even as a mature woman I couldn't bring myself to tell him explicitly to get lost. When I think back to my young self, and to all the current young women, just being polite and suffering the consequences, it makes me furious.

This was just unwelcome pressuring conversation, not assault. Just the ordinary low-level stuff that you forget about when you are old but which is routine when you are a young woman.

Just getting it off my chest, really. I actually do feel guilty about rebuffing this old man so that he doesn't get what he wants from me (namely, I think, the opportunity to talk "flatteringly" to me for ages while he thinks his lecherous thoughts).

I was having a similar debate with a friend of a friend on Facebook recently over the language used in 'Lads Mags'. He was saying that whilst he saw that the language used in the mags is misogynistic and that it encouraged men to use that sort of language as part of "lads banter" he felt it was harmless because it was not directed at women and didn't necessarily reflect the way that most of the men would behave. He wouldn't do it himself, but was quite happy to defend the men who do.

For me, it is just the same as the man trying to engage a woman in an inappropriate conversation. Regardless of the fact that he may have no harmful intent, if he is going to behave in a way that raises the same red flags as a man who does intend harm to women, then he deserves to be treated in the same way as someone who will cause harm. If it quacks like a duck it deserves to be shot like a duck, even if it is just a decoy that will never walk like a duck.

What it stems from is that men have the power in society to demand to be treated like one of the good guys, even when they are behaving in a way that has more in common with the bad guys. To me, this is a classic exemplar of male privilege.

A lot of men who like to see themselves as one of the good guys will still defend unattractive behaviour in other men. The great majority of them will do even less to actually tackle it. They know, even on a subconscious level, that if they do directly challenge the right of men to behave like jerks but be treated as a good guy then they will be giving up privilege that they benefit from. Giving up privilege is so hard to do- how many of us, for example, continue to buy sweatshop goods even though we know that we should be buying fair trade?

What took me by surprise is how hurtful I found it that someone who should be a friend was so clearly (if not consciously) stating that even the good guys just aren't prepare to get women's backs on this one. That we really are alone in trying to make a change.

It didn't help as well that DH, in a brief conversation I had with him about it said that he could see where this bloke was coming from. It did feel like a real 'et tu Brutus' moment and I need to have it out with him, but it will wait until the weekend after he has finished a hugely stressful week at work followed by an interview tomorrow.

Then my assertion that women should take action in such a situation was wrong, if it causes such widespread fear.

How do we make men aware that in some circumstances their behaviour is wrong and disturbing? And how much difference do you think it will make?

If only we could get men to realise that tolerating shitty behaviour from other men actually harms the good guys as well as harming women. Two examples:

I was friends with a guy at college. Funnily, the first time I met him I thought he was a bit of a chauvinist, but he was friends with a group of thoroughly decent men that I knew, so I gave him a second chance. We got on well, and actually became quite good friends. We spent time together and I spent time alone with him in both his flat and mine. When we met I was in a relationship, and we continued to be friends after I split with my boyfriend. At no time did I give him any suggestion that I fancied him. About a year later, he sent me a series of text messages telling me how much I fancied him. They were obviously intended to be a bit jokey but I found them deeply unpleasant. I told him this. He sent more. I blocked him and never spoke to him again. Now experience - the fact that I had previously been alone and drunk with him in our respective flats, told me that I should be able to trust him, but the text messages overruled all that. It was not a risk I could take. I know that he feels deeply aggrieved that I cut contact and warned other female friends against being alone with him, but tough.

Second example. I was cycling through the city in the summer and a car came past me with a group of four young guys in it. As it passed me, one guy, who was sitting with his arm out of the open window gave me a thumbs up. The traffic congestion meant that I would play leap frog with this car along the particular stretch of road, as I would pass the stationary traffic in the cycle lane at the side of the road, only to be overtaken 100 yards later when it moved again. I could feel myself tensing up as I had to pass this car, expecting to get the sort of lewd comments and catcalling that I am unfortunately all too familiar with when I am out running or cycling, but as I went past the car, all I got was a smile and a little wave. Nothing horrible at all. It actually left me feeling quite cheery.

Now, although the first guy behaved like a jerk, he probably didn't deserve me treating him like a potential rapist (even though he brought it on himself). The second guy really didn't deserve me reacting to him like a street harasser. If men did more to actually stop other men treating women like jerks, they might actually reap the rewards in terms of how women respond to men generally.

Read the coffee analogy, if you are a decent guy missing the point.

Read Schrodinger's Rapist, if you are a decent guy missing the point.

Get the decent guys who are missing the point you know to read The Gift of Fear

Call out other decent guys who are missing the point on their behaviour - "hey, that woman wouldn't even talk to me, I was just being friendly." "Well, dude, she had things on her mind that mattered more to her than talking to you - that's fair enough."

Because if all the decent guys who are missing the point start getting the point and behaving differently, he guys who are getting the point and ignoring the point will be easier for us all to spot.

"How do we make men aware that in some circumstances their behaviour is wrong and disturbing?"

Biggedy - can I ask a genuine question? When was the last time that you asked this question to a group of men?

Biggedy - have you ever become aware that a man you knew was behaving like a jerk to women? And if so, how did you react?

Here lies the problem with being an older married man on here. My friends are married or settled with a partner. We don't go out on the pull/chatting up. We don't mix with men who do. So, by and large, I am not privy to either myself or a friend attempting to chat a woman up and being rebuffed. It has been around 25 years since I have been in a position to do so. I don't socialise with men who go to pubs or clubs for these activities. So, I don't really have the opportunity to witness these interactions. That is how it is in my circumstances.

I work in a mixed office. We have men making rude jokes. We have women making rude jokes. But it is interaction, not denigration or humiliation. I hope I would be able to tell the difference. for some reason I fell I'd be more comfortable telling a man to pipe down rather than a woman, but until it happens, I cannot be sure. Probably not much help.

My experience is that the men who behave like this are often married or with a partner. They're not on the pull, they just get a thrill from being dicks towards women.

Have you truly never, ever seen one of your friends behaving selfishly or rudely towards a woman (including his wife/partner), Biggedy? Or been at a professional event of some sort and seen an obviously uncomfortable woman trying to fend off the attentions of a man standing too close to her?

If they were dicks who I saw behave like that, they would not be my friend. I am wracking my brains over the professional event thing. I will come back if I think of one.

I mean, what if I and my friends are just a group of Nigels? Some of you may be married or settled, and no doubt to decent, upstanding Nigels. It is just possible that I know a small group of similar people.

That's not quite what Nigels are, biggedy.

Has your DP or DW ever experienced this, do you know?

Then you have to be proactive and start discussions. Don't just wait until something happens. Grabbing a coffee with a male friend? "I read an article the other day about men harassing women in the street - it's crap how some men do that, isn't it?".

Can you answer my question as to when you last had that sort of conversation with a man?

Re my wife, she had a DJ in a nightclub propose to her, over the microphone, as we walked past. Before we were married, so I suppose he was entitled to ask. He never pursued the matter. She had a guy try to chat her up on her hen do, who then asked if she was gay because she wasn't interested. The other one I remember was another woman trying to chat her up in a club in front of me, before we were married. That was really quite surreal. I still like to remind her of it.

I find it hard to believe that in your group of middle-aged men there is not a single one who enjoys getting a bit too close to attractive younger women and quizzing them on their personal lives. It's possible I suppose but it flies in the face of my wide experience of the demographic.

I suppose this behaviour is often quite subtle. When I was sitting next to a self-satisfied middle-aged man at a conference dinner last year we probably looked to anyone else as if we were having a polite professional chat, rather than him interrogating me about when I was planning to go swimming in the hotel pool.

Thistle, I don't recall having any sort of conversation about male harassment. I could imagine circumstances whereby it might occur if someone close to us had encountered it, but I don't recall it happening.

Why do you feel that DJ was entitled to ask, Biggedy? It was obviously not going to get a positive response.

Did he do it over a microphone?

Why do you think he did it?

I find it hard to believe that in your group of middle-aged men there is not a single one who enjoys getting a bit too close to attractive younger women and quizzing them on their personal lives.

I like to take internet chats as a swapping of ideas and opinions with random strangers, and no more than that. However, I find that incredibly insulting, and I think it says far, far more about you than it does about me and my friends.

"Thistle, I don't recall having any sort of conversation about male harassment. I could imagine circumstances whereby it might occur if someone close to us had encountered it, but I don't recall it happening."

This is where I believe the problem lies. Not to get at you personally, Biggedy.

I think just about every woman will have had a conversation at some time about suffering unwanted attention and harassment from a man, either themselves or a friend. Because it doesn't affect men directly, they don't discuss it. It is sad that it affecting the women they are supposed to love is not enough for them to be interested, but there it is. Violence against women is just not something that bothers even the good guys enough to feel that they need to do anything about it.

He did it because frankly she looked beautiful, and he was expressing admiration. And, just possibly, fractionally, she may have left me and lead a life of bliss with him and his crappy taste in music. The important point is, how did it make her feel? Was she upset, threatened, humiliated, denigrated, lessened, furious, appalled, outraged or in any way made to feel less than a human being of equal status? Because that is the difference between threatening and abusive behaviour, and acceptable interaction between equals. You, I or anyone else cannot make that decision on her behalf.

I don't know anything about you and your friends. I am speaking, as I said, from my wide experience of middle-aged men, which is that in any particular situation or group a certain minority of them (a fifth? a quarter?) will enjoy a little boundary pushing in conversation with younger women.

Obviously however I am a bitter, angry feminist

The thing is, with the best will in the world, I bet Biggedy has never noticed it. I bet he would never have noticed, guessed or suspected it about the University Professor who was part of my respectable social circle. Married with children. Lefty liberal. Progressive, intelligent views about the role of women in society. Generally, polite, well-spoken, well regarded. I would have been insulted on his behalf if anyone had labeled him a sleaze right up to the point where he was rather too drunk at a party and grabbed my arse.

Biggedy - you seem like a thoughtful, caring sort of chap, who is not afraid to debate his opinions on important social issues. You also profess to care about violence to women.

Why, then, have you never had this sort of conversation with your male friends?

Is it not an important enough use of your time? Or something else?

Biggedy, I'm not looking to make the decision on her behalf. But - was he concerned about how she felt? Did he think whether his comment would be welcome before he said it, do you think?

I was once at a station, tipsy and falling in love. A man said to me, "I hope you don't mind me saying, but you look great." He then stepped back and said nothing else, I smiled and said thanks. He was expressing admiration but being respectful about how he did it.

A DJ calling out to a woman he's never met about marriage doesn't sound as if his first consideration was her feelings, but I wasn't there and you were.