Just been mildly hit on by some sleazy old man ...

[ButThereAgain]

... which is a ridiculous and stupid thing to happen to a middle-aged woman out walking her dog in the woods, but which gave me this huge dual-carriageway of memory to the sorts of things that used to happen to me (as to almost every young women) when I was very young, when men would seize on my timid politeness as a way of wheedling at me and blaming me for the situations their insistence created.

At the time I was naive and like a million other young women I would blame myself for whatever awkward situation arose. But now, with the perspective of maturity, I can see much more clearly how it works -- how they engineer things so that you start to see their pressuring of you as something you have yourself created.

I'm not talking of anything remotely close to sexual assault -- just a kind of insistent, "flattering" attention. If you are like me, you start off being very polite and kind, and once you realise how pressing and inappropriately demanding they are being, the necessary rudeness (to make them fuck off) seems likes such a reversal that you feel guilty, almost buying in to their perception of you as having somehow "led them on" and then rebuffed them.

And all the "compliments" are structured to try and make you think that your alleged loveliness (I'm not remotely lovely, just an old hag in a muddy waterproof coat) takes agency away from them and makes you yourself to blame.

Even as a mature woman I couldn't bring myself to tell him explicitly to get lost. When I think back to my young self, and to all the current young women, just being polite and suffering the consequences, it makes me furious.

This was just unwelcome pressuring conversation, not assault. Just the ordinary low-level stuff that you forget about when you are old but which is routine when you are a young woman.

Just getting it off my chest, really. I actually do feel guilty about rebuffing this old man so that he doesn't get what he wants from me (namely, I think, the opportunity to talk "flatteringly" to me for ages while he thinks his lecherous thoughts).

[TheDoctrineOfWho]

Do you see that the person with the microphone is in a greater position of power than the person without?

[Thistledew]

But Biggedy, you have already assured us that none of your social or work circle would ever behave in such a way, so that would just leave random incidents in the street. You have also said that you struggle to recall having witnessed any such incidents before. So your promise is to do pretty much the fat sum of nothing, isn't it? It certainly doesn't involve changing your own behaviour and doing anything pro-active, does it?

Is that because you don't really care enough? Or you think it is not your fight/problem?

[MadBusLady]

Lovecat I just want to add to consensus that you are right IMO. One of the best things my mum did for me was teach me (and show me, she takes no prisoners herself) that I didn't have to be polite and appeasing to everyone all the time, that it was ok in particular to be rude to men if I felt scared or uncomfortable.

I think she only told me that once, but it really stuck and I've - touch wood - never had a problem telling people to fuck off when I needed to.

[TheDoctrineOfWho]

The person at the station was more akin to chatting me up.

Anyhow, this discussion is starting to creep me out. Congratulations, Biggedy.

[Biggedybiggedybongsoitis]

Yes. And do you see that a DJ in full public view is less likely to pursue/harrass a woman than a stranger at a station making unrequested comments to a woman who has been drinking?

[Thistledew]

I wonder what the DJ would have done if the woman he had picked on had not responded positively? I somehow very much doubt it would have included an equally public apology and for causing her discomfort. Too much loss of face.

[TheDoctrineOfWho]

Sigh.

No one is suggesting that the DJ is likely to have become violent. They are questioning the entitled nature of what he did in itself.

[Biggedybiggedybongsoitis]

We have moved from discussion to point scoring and trying to get one over with every single post. Never a good sign.

[TheDoctrineOfWho]

Night all.

[Daykin]

The DJ had already pursued/harassed the woman with his massive microphone. He could have followed her about by blasting 'banter' and 'jokes' through every speaker in the place with his sense of entitlement.

[Blistory]

Just because the DJs 'offence' was lesser than the guy in the car park isn't the point.

It's just a lesser version of the same offence. And that's one of the main problems - the small stuff is seen as so innocuous, so much so that you're defending it even when we're telling you how it feels to be on the receiving end.

[scallopsrgreat]

I don't think we are deliberately trying to point score Biggedy but the phraseology you are using is very telling. It shouts male privilege.

[Thistledew]

I should be used to it by now, but it does still amaze me that there are so many guys who admit that certain experiences are outside their own experience, yet when women explain that this makes them feel X, say "I don't believe it, you must feel Y". Do they think we are mad, infantile or lying?

Why is it too much to ask for a man to say "You feel X? That had never occurred to me. Thank you for educating me.".

But that would interfere with their privilege of Being A Man Who Is Always Right, wouldn't it?

[TheDoctrineOfWho]

< nips back in>

As it seems to have become relevant, it was a main train station, well lit, shops open and said man was at least 2m away from me.

[Thistledew]

It does doesn't it scallop. The guy I was in the FB argument with told me that I was patronising and needed to be more balanced. Well, it is quite difficult to not appear patronising when someone persists in saying that men will naturally objectify women because they are far more visual than women. And if by 'balanced' you mean "stop systematically deconstructing and destroying my argument point by point and instead agree with me", then you can shove your balance up your arse!

[Dervel]

Just read the whole thread, learnt a lot. Thanks for the insights.

[DadWasHere]

Apparently, Biggedy, your wifes positive response to the DJs proposal is a result of her being unawakened and deluded by patriarchal societal constructs. Who would have thought? For the record bro my wife would have likely responded the same as yours. Unless of course instead of being young and handsome the DJ were old and plain, that would jump the tracks of flattery to sleezy in a single bound.

[Dervel]

Dude can you really not see how that is a mite inappropriate? Wether or not one specific instance of a guy coming onto a woman (like the DJ thing), is pushing a boundary or not is immaterial. Wether some women would shrug it off and enjoy the banter does not magically invalidate those who would find it unwelcome and demeaning.

Finally the insinuation that women (as a whole group) are so superficial that the only significant factor is the looks of the male doing the approaching, is quite frankly fucking disgusting. Yes I am sure some women live and breathe who are superficial, but what pray tell happens when we shine that light on the male of the species on the subject of judging women on something as superficial as looks? Yeah I thought so!

I'm finding this thread both illuminating and thought provoking, and as an extremely chatty guy I find it a nigh on racing certainty that I have no doubt creeped out some women in my attempts to be chatty. I am keen to learn how and to correct it. So please either bugger off or become part of the solution rather than the problem. Either is fine with me.

[scallopsrgreat]

His wife's response to the DJ is entirely up to her. Don't say things we haven't said, Dadwashere.

As Dervel said stop invalidating other people's feelings. Your wife may or may not reacted in the manner you attribute to her. However how she reacted or felt at the time is dependent on a great many factors and the DJ had no way of knowing that. And more to the point if she had felt uncomfortable what could she have done about it?

[scallopsrgreat]

This survey linked on another thread makes sad and depressing reading. Are you going to deny these 1000 girls' experiences too? It also demonstrates that this isn't about how a few women would react to a marriage proposal by a DJ but about the entitlement of men and the assumption that women and girls just have to put up with this. The DJ incident is just one very small part of a very pervasive continuum.

[funnyvalentine]

This thread is really interesting - I've always hated being hit on and never quite know how to handle it. Society tells me that I should just smile and be happy that someone finds me attractive, so I just do the thing that I guess most women do of smiling, laughing, shrugging it off, whilst inwardly feeling really uncomfortable. You cannot normally just be rude to these men because they are friends, or friends of friends, or colleagues. And if you are the slightest bit rude or dismissive, you end up not only getting a reputation for being miserable, but feeling awkward about it yourself because being rude isn't somethings we're brought up to do. It feels really wrong to be anything but polite to others.

Actually, not sure I've even talked to my male friends or my husband about how uncomfortable it makes me feel to get unwanted attention. I guess mainly because I don't want to be on the receiving end of "oh you should be glad" and "I wish it happened to me" and "no need to be rude to the poor man".

My daughter is only 2, but I'm now thinking about how I can bring her up to be better able to handle this sort of stuff.

[YoniMatopoeia]

My DD is 7 funny and I am wondering about the same thing.

Actually, my DS is 14, and it just as important that I educate him on not making women feel uncomfortable or threatened.

[Dervel]

One point I can raise on the masculine side of the fence is how intensely afraid a lot of us men are if they are hit on by a member of their own gender. It's often a sure fire way of making a lot of men feel uncomfortable. Probably why we (patriarchy) segregate gay men off into their own community instead of being fully fledged and integrated members of our society side by side (which they should be!).

After all I don't think anyone likes unwanted attention from someone they do not find attractive. I can see how what could just be a minor annoyance can be compounded by being hit on constantly by people who feel entitled to do so.

To put this in perspective as I said before I am very chatty, and I can have a tendency to strike up conversations with all and sundry. I remember once getting a bite to eat in a MacDonalds when I was 19 or so, and tried to strike up a chat with some bloke sat nearby. I was told firmly (but not in any rude way) he didn't want to talk, just to enjoy his meal in peace. Which is fine, but it mortifies me to think any women I have struck up conversations with in the past may well have felt the same, but felt unable to tell me to sod off. Although I say that with the caveat that if I engage with someone and there is no back and forth, I will interpret that as a desire to be left in peace.