Just been mildly hit on by some sleazy old man ...

[ButThereAgain]

... which is a ridiculous and stupid thing to happen to a middle-aged woman out walking her dog in the woods, but which gave me this huge dual-carriageway of memory to the sorts of things that used to happen to me (as to almost every young women) when I was very young, when men would seize on my timid politeness as a way of wheedling at me and blaming me for the situations their insistence created.

At the time I was naive and like a million other young women I would blame myself for whatever awkward situation arose. But now, with the perspective of maturity, I can see much more clearly how it works -- how they engineer things so that you start to see their pressuring of you as something you have yourself created.

I'm not talking of anything remotely close to sexual assault -- just a kind of insistent, "flattering" attention. If you are like me, you start off being very polite and kind, and once you realise how pressing and inappropriately demanding they are being, the necessary rudeness (to make them fuck off) seems likes such a reversal that you feel guilty, almost buying in to their perception of you as having somehow "led them on" and then rebuffed them.

And all the "compliments" are structured to try and make you think that your alleged loveliness (I'm not remotely lovely, just an old hag in a muddy waterproof coat) takes agency away from them and makes you yourself to blame.

Even as a mature woman I couldn't bring myself to tell him explicitly to get lost. When I think back to my young self, and to all the current young women, just being polite and suffering the consequences, it makes me furious.

This was just unwelcome pressuring conversation, not assault. Just the ordinary low-level stuff that you forget about when you are old but which is routine when you are a young woman.

Just getting it off my chest, really. I actually do feel guilty about rebuffing this old man so that he doesn't get what he wants from me (namely, I think, the opportunity to talk "flatteringly" to me for ages while he thinks his lecherous thoughts).

Enlighten - I do get some of it. Some women say nothing. Others tell him to piss right off. I was wondering what made the difference.

I suppose a more productive question might be why are so many men OK with the notion that women are probably afraid of them?

Well, are they aware? How do we know? If it were true, the answer would be because they are lacking in empathy, social skills and a conscience. In fact, pretty much sociopathic. In all seriousness, maybe that's it.

Biggedy it was a question to challenge your posts on this thread suggesting that women should change to address this behaviour from men. I didn't ask why men approach women, I asked "why don't they realise they are crossing boundaries and stop doing it".

Note: crossing boundaries and stop doing it not approaching women.

Floral, it wasn't my thread & it was in AIBU (I know, I know!) where another poster was talking about unwanted male attention. It was about 4 years ago but I still remember the overriding opinion, quite vigorously expressed, was that she should be grateful she was considered attractive enough to speak to/why was she so bigheaded/to ignore people was 'rude' (the OP, not DD!).

Sigh.

Biddegy that's a fairly typical response of writing off rapists or entitled encroachers as sociopaths so that men don't have to deal with the impact of their socialised behaviour. Chances are you know a rapist and you will certainly know an entitled encroacher. Men are socialised to expect women to respond positively to their approaches. If non-rapist men would stop the entitled encroaching, it would be a lot easier to spot the rapists.

Lovecat yes, women are socialised not only to behave that way themselves but to teach their daughters to be the same way.

Sigh indeed.

An explanation on why women are expected to be the gatekeepers

biggedy I really tired and I'm about to put the 3 little one's to bed. I do have an as answer to your question, but will have to give it later.

Blistory, very good post. that is exactly what passes through your head when a man wanders up and starts a bizarre inappropriate conversation when you're on your own. That exact sequence of thoughts has gone through my head more times than I can count.

Flora, you asked me a question, and I responded. If you didn't agree with the answer, I don't know what else to say on the subject, so let's leave it.

writing off rapists or entitled encroachers as sociopaths so that men don't have to deal with the impact of their socialised behaviour. If it is a socialised behaviour, what makes some men do it and others not? I will make no more assumptions, so I will have to ask some questions. How many men act in this way? If you encountered 100 random men in a calendar year, roughly what percentage would you expect to display these kinds of behaviour?

Even if it were true that these men are sociopaths surely that would be even more reason for them to change their behaviour, not women?

Why aren't men as a class doing anything about this behaviour? I don't believe it's because they aren't aware that women are frightened of men. You only have to open a newspaper or watch the TV for those messages to start filtering through.

It's difficult to answer multiple posters without looking like the page is full of me sounding off, so please forgive. Buffy, yes, always. I think about women in the vicinity when I walk home late, especially in the dark, and how to keep my distance. I wonder about throwaway comments in work to female colleagues, in case they are misconstrued, even if someone is being mildly flirtatious. I wonder if my friends' wives have been through this sort of thing. I wonder if my friends do it.

And as for chatting to you socially, I hope that (a) I can judge body language, and (b) your level of interest. I am married, so would not be chatting you up. If I sensed you were interested in the conversation, and I was too, I could hold a coherent conversation. If I was boring the legs off you, or vice versa, I hope I would pick up on this too and politely excuse myself. But then I guess I would say that on here. I bet the nutty men think this too. So actually, how would I know ? Oh, and I am sure you are very nice too.

Biggedy you answered a question I didn't ask with a lot of stuff I already knew. Don't know how you can say I didn't agree with the answer.

As to your questions, we are not robots or Pavlov's dogs, we are not bound by our socialised behaviour but it provides a base layer of assumptions that frames our outlook and expectations. I'm not interested in quantifying how many men out of 100 in a calendar year do this.

Response one: why don't women change their behaviour
Response two: let me tell you reasons men do that that you should not worry about
Response three: men who do that are sociopaths
Response four: tell me exactly how many men do that

All minimising women's experiences and/or deflecting responsibility from normal men.

Because it's always worth posting...

the buy you a coffee analogy

Response one - if women told men they were uncomfortable, men can change. If some men don't know, and there will be some who genuinely don't, they won't change. For some it won't work whatever you say, and they are dangerous. For others, it could be a lightbulb moment, and thus lessen then number of men doing this, thus lessening in future the number of women suffering this crap.

Response two - absolute bollocks. I am not going over this for a third time.

Response three - men who disregard another person's feelings, who are uncaring, who have no empathy, who disregard social etiquette, who are unable or unwilling to sense another human being's discomfort, who place their own feelings and desires above everybody else's at all times, who won't take no for an answer, who become aggressive when they don't get their way, who abuse because they don't get their way - all sociopathic tendencies. Find me a psychiatrist or a psychiatric definition that disagrees.

Response four - how did you translate the word 'roughly' as 'exactly'? I think this one was my favourite by the way.

I am aware by the way, that sometimes fear for personal safety means you won't want to put a man down directly. I fully understand this. Many of us have been in a situation where we have thought it was all going to kick off aggressively.

Biggedy, not 'sometimes fear for personal safety' but ALWAYS fear for personal safety in those circumstances. Each and every time. It's a judgement call every single time.

I can see how that sounds dramatic but the is what life is like for women as a result of men's behaviour.

Please don't ask us to take responsibility for changing men - only men can do that.

Men know when they make women uncomfortable. Please don't excuse their behaviour.

My experience of men who do this is that they get pleasure out of making women feel uncomfortable... it's a power thing. After many years' experience I can now swiftly tell the difference between the encroachers and well-meaning men who just fancy a chat. The latter immediately back off in the face of any signals of discomfiture/hostility. And they don't introduce topics like the woman's appearance/marital status, or issue inappropriate invitations.

Okay, well at least I can see where you are coming from, scallops and Blistory. I do think I am only antagonising this discussion, which was not my intention, so what say I drop out and save us a lot of frustration.

You're not antagonising me - raising awareness is what it's all about and you've already raised that point.

I'd just like more men to start turning that awareness into something - like teaching their sons, calling out other men when they do it etc.