Just been mildly hit on by some sleazy old man ...

[ButThereAgain]

... which is a ridiculous and stupid thing to happen to a middle-aged woman out walking her dog in the woods, but which gave me this huge dual-carriageway of memory to the sorts of things that used to happen to me (as to almost every young women) when I was very young, when men would seize on my timid politeness as a way of wheedling at me and blaming me for the situations their insistence created.

At the time I was naive and like a million other young women I would blame myself for whatever awkward situation arose. But now, with the perspective of maturity, I can see much more clearly how it works -- how they engineer things so that you start to see their pressuring of you as something you have yourself created.

I'm not talking of anything remotely close to sexual assault -- just a kind of insistent, "flattering" attention. If you are like me, you start off being very polite and kind, and once you realise how pressing and inappropriately demanding they are being, the necessary rudeness (to make them fuck off) seems likes such a reversal that you feel guilty, almost buying in to their perception of you as having somehow "led them on" and then rebuffed them.

And all the "compliments" are structured to try and make you think that your alleged loveliness (I'm not remotely lovely, just an old hag in a muddy waterproof coat) takes agency away from them and makes you yourself to blame.

Even as a mature woman I couldn't bring myself to tell him explicitly to get lost. When I think back to my young self, and to all the current young women, just being polite and suffering the consequences, it makes me furious.

This was just unwelcome pressuring conversation, not assault. Just the ordinary low-level stuff that you forget about when you are old but which is routine when you are a young woman.

Just getting it off my chest, really. I actually do feel guilty about rebuffing this old man so that he doesn't get what he wants from me (namely, I think, the opportunity to talk "flatteringly" to me for ages while he thinks his lecherous thoughts).

I now feel torn on whether I should offer an apology for being aggressive towards Biggedy. I'm not sure. Is it something that is worth being angry about? I have to confess that after the FB conversation I spoke about up thread I am feeling really raw emotionally. I have realised today that it is triggering of the feelings I felt when I was being bullied for years at school. The teachers at school knew, but never bothered to do anything about it. My parents didn't even think to ask. It really feels like the vast majority of men are in one of those two camps, because sexual harassment of women is bullying, plain and simple. Either men know and decide to do nothing to stop it, or (despite the raging of feminist groups) they just don't even think to ask about the hurt it causes.

I'm feeling very cynical at the moment, and wish that I could see this differently.

I do recall something, when I was in my 20's. Drunk at the end of an evening meal on a works do, wives and partners there too. All good humoured, and someone pulled me up on my swearing. He was maybe early 50's. Really nice guy too. He said his generation would never swear in front of women. I said that's nice of you, but 'you lot (his generation) never minded giving your women a slap, did you?' or something similar. The table went very quiet. I felt bad because he was a nice guy, and as far as I know, he had never hit his wife. Does that count? Maybe you didn't mean drunken blurting.

Biggedy, You think a DJ in a nightclub was entitled to ask a woman he didn't know to marry him? Really? Entitled to possibly embarrass, maybe even humiliate her? Interrupt whatever she is doing to focus her attention on him?

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. These men aren't sociopaths they just have a sense of entitlement.

Sorry cross post - got interrupted writing that! I see Doctrine already has that covered

No, Biggedy. Deflecting attention from your own behaviour which it had been suggested to you was making others uncomfortable by saying that things used to be a lot worse, does nothing at all towards reducing violence to women.

HTH

Doctrine - she lapped it up. The DJ, or anyone else for that matter, could never be absolutely certain 100 per cent sure that she wouldn't be offended. She may have just been left at the altar the week before and be really raw about any mention of marriage. But he judged her, her mood, her body language correctly. He was also an excellent judge of wife.

Did he do it over a microphone, Biggedy?

I was 20-odd and pissed. Guilty. However, I don't think that women are helpless wallflowers. I see them as equal. So if I am swearing in front of the men, I won't make a distinction for the women. That was my drunken point. Should I?

And don't do the HTH thing. It just looks smug and rude.

From my post Doctrine - Re my wife, she had a DJ in a nightclub propose to her, over the microphone, as we walked past.

Sorry, missed that!

Your example of "oh, she might have been offended if she'd been jilted the week before" is setting the bar all wrong, IMO. Lots of reasons, as outlined by scallops, why a woman might not want that attention - it's not an exceptional circumstance of bad luck like a coincidental jiltiing which means only one woman in 1000 might be made uncomfortable by behaviour like that.

He still felt entitled to interrupt a woman he'd never even spoke to and make her focus be on him.

No your comment to that man was completely inappropriate for the reason Thistledew said. And the point you were allegedly trying to make wasn't that visible. You were basically accusing that man of hitting his wife. For no reason whatsoever.

I actually agree on the swearing - I dislike it when men apologise for swearing in front of me because I'm female.

Oh jolly good! The woman reacted in the right way, so it didn't matter that the guy was being a dick. Dickishness cancelled out by the right response from the woman. Harm avoided by the woman behaving the right way = no harm caused. FFS (or are no abbreviations allowed)

I note that not one of you decided to pick up on the female clubber who made a deliberate attempt to chat her up right in front of me. Any particular reason? It's right there in the same paragraph.

Do remember, ladies, when going on a night out, to check all your negative feelings into the cloakroom along with your coats, just incase you should come across a random stranger who wants to propose to you for the general entertainment of the room. Don't want to put a downer on the night by not responding in the right way, do we?! Imagine what a drag it would be!!!

Or maybe, the DJ was psychic and only picked on a woman that he knew would be made happy by a random proposal? Wooo!

Because someone calling out. "Wiill you marry me" out of the blue (over a microphone) is very "me me me" on the part of the someone.

Because we're not scared of other women generally. Different dynamic

If that woman was aggressive, or persisted in trying to chat up your wife after your wife had indicated that she was not interested, then that woman was also a dick. If she started talking to your wife on the understanding that your wife was perfectly able to tell her to buzz off if she wanted to, but that she didn't see your wife being in your "possession" as a sole indicator of your wife's wishes, then I can't see the problem. Same would go for a guy.

So, we are moving from some semblance of discussion to throwing out sarcasm to the receptive audience. I think we are done here.

Yes we also missed the guy on the hen do chatting her up too Are you being deliberately obtuse or have you just not be reading a word we've said Biggedy?

And your second example, of the guy who called her gay, was also not picked up

1. Calling out publicly
2. Trying to insult when he didn't get his way
3. Chatting her up

Paraphrasing your descriptions, but hopefully you can see how the three matters came across?

Thistle you don't owe any apologies. It is common for normal men to refuse to accept that their normal friends may be entitled arseholes or even rapists. It is common for normal men to believe creeps and rapists are sociopaths who can be spotted a mile off and avoided. It is sadly also common for normal men to react indignantly or with outrage and even sometimes aggressively if you point out that creeps and rapists walk among us appearing to be normal men, that women most often cannot tell normal men apart from creeps and rapists, especially when normal men refuse to accept that their behaviour sometimes makes them seem like potential creeps or rapists.

Cue outrage...3....2...1

The DJ was doing no harm. She took no offence, and in the exchange that is all that matters to her. She enjoyed the joke. The bloke on the hen do was a prick, and should have been what this discussion was all about. The woman - well, I was bemused and amused, and my then-girlfriend was not upset either. Nobody questioned her behaviour though, not one. If I had told you that a bloke had tried to chat her up in the same circumstances, you would have thought he was a prick too.

Biggedy

Do you genuinely believe that no woman would have been offended/upset/embarrassed by the DJ?

Not outrage, Flora. We could go over and over and over this. You have your views, I have mine. Someone called it a prism through which we view the world. They tend to remain pretty fixed. I have said a couple of times that I am probably seen as antagonistic, and it isn't my intention, so I will withdraw.