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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Feminist Pub (continued).

999 replies

UptoapointLordCopper · 23/11/2013 20:02

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shock Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight. Smile

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UptoapointLordCopper · 13/12/2013 18:15

There are a million things other people do that I won't dream of doing and some things that some people do that I think are downright foolish but I tend to only tell DH that. Grin

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UptoapointLordCopper · 13/12/2013 18:16

I ignore etiquette due to being foreign. Wink

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BelleCurve · 13/12/2013 18:17

I do mind though, that there is even the possibility of addressing a woman which identifies her marital status.

Either we should abandon that system or have the equivalent for men. I think the fact that the system of titles exists for women disadvantages all of us , because it identifies your relationship (or not) with a man as one of the most important and public pieces of info about you.

Whichever title you choose, people will make assumptions and judgements - about you and whether or not you are "owned".

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 13/12/2013 18:23

Let them assume all they want. I know I am not owned by my husband.

Of course, I am also, in many ways, in a very traditional marriage anyway. My husband works full time, I freelance part time and the house and our son is primarily my responsibility, although my husband does his share when he has time, as we are a team. That was a decision we came to, together, after I became pregnant and we looked at many factors to go that way.

At the same time, I do freelance, which means I run my own very small company.

I do agree that there should be a designation for 'Married Man' as there is for 'Married Woman'. But I have no idea what it could be.

And people make judgements about other people all the time based on all sorts of things.

UptoapointLordCopper · 13/12/2013 18:24

Perhaps it's a matter of the "structural" and the "personal". I don't mind (I do care - I think they should mind but they don't and they have a right to not mind) that people choose to have titles indicating their marital status. I am angry that such titles exist. And I am angry when I don't do anything about it because I feel that I collude with the system.

Am I agreeing with you BelleCurve? Confused

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AnnieLobeseder · 13/12/2013 18:27

Caught your eye in a good or bad way, TEE? I am slightly regretting my phrasing but the Dark Mood is upon me and I'm struggling to be even vaguely polite to anyone. As such I am refraining from posting further, even though I have much to say on why women are ashamed to be called Miss.

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 13/12/2013 18:29

A bad way. Assuming they are 'sheep' is insulting. To the sheep and the people you are talking about.

I'm sorry to hear you are in a dark place. I know of dark places. Do you have any help or take any medicines? I take many many pills many times a day to keep the dark place away.

AnnieLobeseder · 13/12/2013 19:21

Grin at insulting to sheep!

No, not my finest hour. The subject of family names/titles is one of my biggest bugbears and I'm usually far more eloquent about it. But I'm sure there are days when all of us just lose the patience to explain feminist theory politely and just beat some sense into people instead.

No medication here, apart from the glass of wine coming up shortly. I'm in the final year of my PhD, which had gone badly from the start so my stress levels are through the roof. Only normal and to be expected, but sometimes it all gets too much and I have a Dark Time. The added stress of Christmas isn't helping, but that will be over soon enough!!

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 13/12/2013 19:31
Grin

Sorry you're so stressed. Yes, 12 more sleeps and it will all be over but the eating and drinking. Christmas, obviously, not your PhD.

And good luck with that!

BelleCurve · 13/12/2013 20:07

Yes Upto, I think so. I mind on a political level, rather than an individual level. Of course some women are happy to be Mrs, but it disadvantages all women that we have to make that statement when men. If we could genuinely use Ms without the accompanying eyeroll ot would be an improvement.

Isn't that feminism though, minding about this stuff on a political structural level?

BelleCurve · 13/12/2013 20:07

*when men don't

SconeRhymesWithGone · 13/12/2013 20:18

Isn't that feminism though, minding about this stuff on a political structural level?

I think so. The name thing for me is not so much about whether someone takes someone else's surname (for my women friends, it's about half and half), but about the Mrs. aspect. I certainly don't think there is a feminist defense for a system of titles that designates women based on marital status, while not doing so for men.

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 13/12/2013 20:21

I would agree it's part of feminism. But I wouldn't agree that's all feminism is about.

I think you can be a feminist and not be at all interested in the political and structural aspect of sexism.

You can want equality and respect and not ponder the higher parts of that. Or even understand they exist.

Not everyone is built for politics and/or political discourse or cares to be.

UptoapointLordCopper · 13/12/2013 20:35

I'm getting more and more political and pissed off as I age. Grin

AnnieLobeseder Final year of Phd is indeed a Dark Time. Hang in there. All I remember about writing up was that our flat then had the cleanest toilet because even cleaning the toilet was preferable to writing up. Grin But it does pass, and now the toilet is just clean enough... (I bloody hate cleaning!)

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GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 13/12/2013 20:40

I'm getting more and more pissed off and less political as I age. Grin

20 years ago, at University, I was all political. Then I got tired.

SconeRhymesWithGone · 13/12/2013 20:48

Actually, Tee, I agree with you on some of what you say, but it is hard for me to separate the personal from the political (oh, I hear an old mantra there, tried but true).

Yes, LordCopper, I am an old feminist, and pretty pissed off. Even older today as it is my birthday. And especially pissed off as most people manage to forget it or ignore it with all this Christmas malarkey going on. Grin

Oh, must amend that. My boss just walked in with flowers and petit fours. Bless her. And no comment about why I was mumsnetting and not working. Smile

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 13/12/2013 20:51

Happy birthday Scone!

I'm 44. All the activism shit I did in the 80s and 90s? We are still doing.

So.So.Tired.

SconeRhymesWithGone · 13/12/2013 20:57

Thanks, Tee!

UptoapointLordCopper · 13/12/2013 21:03

Happy birthday scone!

Yes, v. tiring. Everyday there is something that makes you go "I can't believe this is still happening". Better to be unthinking and unseeing? I don't know ...

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TheDoctrineOfSanta · 13/12/2013 21:15

Happy birthday!

SconeRhymesWithGone · 13/12/2013 21:26

Thanks, all. I am heading home now (almost 4:30 here). Too tired to go out so DH is cooking something on the grill to go with the wine I plan to drink. See y'all later this weekend.

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 13/12/2013 21:28

Have a good one Scone.

Bombs in Belfast. School shootings in Colorado.

Merry fucking Christmas.

youretoastmildred · 13/12/2013 22:19

"there is even the possibility of addressing a woman which identifies her marital status."

  • yes, this is the problem.

this is one of these societal things where choice is not good enough.

Suppose there was a convention that all women's names had their weights automatically published next to them. It was the norm to think more of slim women, so the statistics were published for people to know what they would be getting and not make the mistake of, say, interviewing an overweight woman for a PA role.

Then the convention was weakened, by some women taking a stand and refusing to disclose this information or have it published.

However, the conventional majority, and those who are proud of being slim, continue to publish these statistics whenever their names appear.

What this means is that those who would before have just despised the women for being overweight can now despise them for not publishing their weight. There will be some slim women who don't publish their weight, but all that means is that they get despised anyway and lumped in with the dodgy ones - "they'll all dodgy, aren't they, that lot, either because they're fat or because they're rejecting our right to judge them for being fat."

those who waffle about tradition, about how they love their husband etc are actually also enjoying being on the right side of convention and unless they give up that privilege, then the disadvantage will still pertain to those who cannot access it.

I hate to say this, some of my best friends are called Mrs Theirdh, and I would never mention it to them. but actually, systemically, it is pretty shitty to keep it going. Not all that shitty in the grand scheme of things. but it matters, and it is bad. sorry.

youretoastmildred · 13/12/2013 22:26

And what on earth does it mean to be "just a mum"?
I think of my mother and my grandmothers and they were and are mothers through and through, and I could never in a million years imagine any of them being described, or describing themselves, as "just a mum". I am sure the people saying that mean something lovely but to me that phrase contains a wealth of self deprecating cutesiness that - ugh....

The graciousness, the power, the poise, the carriage, the authority, the wit, the stamina, the honesty, the humour, the love - all of these are part of motherhood - none of them sound like "just a mum" to me, which sounds like an advert for asda oven chips

PacifistDingDong · 13/12/2013 23:18

Happy birthday, Scone SmileThanksCake

Was out with the nursery mums, Wine was partaken, work's night out tomorrow, so now off to bed.

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