The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

Had a long discussion with the kids (5, 4 and 1, admittedly the one year old didn't have much to say) about Nelson Mandela at teatime last night. Very strange introducing the idea of racism to children who have never considered it but kept thinking about the nurtureshock article that says you have to talk about these things explicitly to children otherwise they fill the vaccum of difference themselves. White liberal parents (that'll be us!) often find it difficult to talk about race, whereas black parents are much more explicit about fighting it.

I wonder if the same is true of sexism, parents of girls seek out positive female role models (in the same way black parents talk about positive black role models) but parents of boys generally don't worry about it so much (obv parents on here will). I wonder if there are any studies about the relative sexism of men with just brothers and those with sisters? In my family one of my brothers is quite an outspoken feminist (e.g. he posted on FB 2 baby cards complaining that the options were 'bouncing boy' and 'gorgeous girl' and all the sexist assumptions bound up in that), my other is less obviously opinionated but is very proud of his outspoken high earning wife. My Dad loved opinionated women as well so they've both been brought up valuing women for their brains.

Don't know about siblings but in the US congressmen with daughters are more likely to vote for anti sexist legislation.

I know if I had daughters I would have made a big deal about how they can strive for anything and probably would have overstated it to a degree, but with boys it is more just expected that they can aspire to anything.

I obviously try and instil in my boys that hard work and trying your best is the best you can do and education is the key, but thinking about it I do not push the idea like I imagine I would have with a girl.

I do however make a point about how when they grow up and fall in love, it's much more fun to be with someone who is clever, funny and interesting, as life would be boring without that and my husband says the same to them - hopefully this is giving them a positive impression of women as they grow up (and obviously I'm a fecking awesome role model to boot! )

kickass interesting about men with daughters suddenly being interested in discrimination.

My dad did the exact same job/trade as me (aircraft engineer in RAF), he joined in late 60s and women only started being allowed to work on the squadrons in the early 80s - I remember him being pissed off that they would want 'special treatment' etc at the time. As it turned out, they didn't (who could've guessed?!) and he grudgingly re-assessed his opinion on them.

10 years later, I joined up - doing the same job as him; from that moment he was not just accepting, but an avid supporter of women on the squadrons and takes to task regularly (he now works as a civvy within the RAF) the old dinosaurs who still come out with the sexist shite.

Just goes to show that when there is a vested interest, people change their views.

Yes

But maybe also hy it is so difficult to get people to see about the objectification of women and the sex trade and so on.

The vested interest may well be there, but the whole Madonna Whore thing neuters it quite nicely

The "rape festival" thread , so was that a troll?

It's penis and vagina here. Yes, I know vagina is just one part, but it's what I was raised calling it, it's what I call it.

My son, at 4 with a development delay, has only just noticed his. And it is, of course, his favourite toy. Then again, it's my 39 year old husband's favourite toy as well.

Oh living with BOYS is such a hardship!!!!!

I'm in NI but I don't think they do any sex ed of any sort for years. Hell, he's in an integrated school and they still do a little prayer every day at home time. The joys of this country.

A 'rape festival' thread??
The mind boggles - I've not seen it.

I emphasise being nice, solving conflict by talking about it/stepping back/tolerating others (rather than starting WW3 at the least provocation), I dampen competitiveness ("yes, winning is great, always try your best, but I love you just as much if you don't win") because they are so fiercely competitive, to the point were coming 2nd is 'losing' .
Sigh.
I don't think that a single of my easy-going, chilled genes got through to the DSs. Except possibly DS2's curly hair .

I luffs my boys. Including DH I suppose.

Oh I adore my two boys.

It's just hard to teach the little one that the living room is not an appropriate place to 'adjust' himself when Daddy was never taught that! Or at least never listened to the lessons!

I'm trying to encourage competitiveness in my dds. I think I may have succeeded with dd1, she's absolutely certain that she's the best in the school year academically but she refuses to play sport because she's not so good at that.

I agree that appropriate ways of solving conflict is more important for boys because it seems as if society expects boys to be violent and getting into fights, when actually most of them wouldn't want to do that if they had other ways of sorting things out.

I think competitiveness is good, but it is important that it is not all about the winning (boys and girls).

If you grow up to believe that you are able to compete in anything, then you will - but you have to be able to deal with defeat and failure; you only learn to do this by competing and failing.

Boys tend to be encouraged to have an inherent belief in their ability to do anything, but girls are encouraged to go for the safe achievable option - this is why girls in general are not such risk takers as boys (totally generalised but true, I think).

Just jumping in to say hello to monica and Tee. Glad that y'all meandered over from the other thread. And welcome to benid too.

Now back to my cosy corner to have a large glass of red and a good listen.

Boys tend to be encouraged to have an inherent belief in their ability to do anything, but girls are encouraged to go for the safe achievable option - this is why girls in general are not such risk takers as boys (totally generalised but true, I think).

This is why I love Pink Brain, Blue Brain because it has sensible suggestions to counteract this. I don't have it at the moment (my friend has just had her third son so has borrowed it again to inspire her) but I think it suggests team sports like hockey for this particular problem. We try and stress with the girls that the more you practice something the better you get, and really praise effort. It's hard though sometimes, achievement is just so much more obvious isn't it.

This is totally inappropriate, but the other day I was on the bus with someone repeatedly whispering fiercly to her today 'no, James. No! Nobody wants to see that!'

I have only just twigged what 'that' probably was.

That poor woman, she'll have got off the bus to tell her husband '... and he won't stop fiddling with his thing, and there was this idiot woman on the bus who kept smiling vacantly at him instead of decently averting her eyes, it's disgusting ...'.

Hello!

I've assembled a bookshelf. It weighs a ton. How to get it to where I want it to go!? I need a drink.

Very interesting talk about Media and women

Too bad I can only see about 5 men in the audience.

uptoapoint I assembled an IKEA bookshelf and couldn't lift it off the floor! I had to use the plastic stuff tape that holds the boxes shut, get it under a shelf then use that to lift up the bookshelf. How far do you have to transport yours? have a drink then get a friend to help tomorrow. When we had to move the bunkbeds it took 3 people to move them.

That's a powerful clip. Very good point about how advertising sells values; it also creates values. Her way of making the point about the relationship between media objectification of women and violence against women is good, too. I think that connection is completely unrecognized by so many. And, yeah, no surprise at the lack of male faces in the audience.

Bookshelf in place! Phew! Already half full ...

Great clip Tee

Good clip, Tee - photoshop is the devil's work!

I found out recently that the reason I look shit in any photo but my sister miraculously looks amazing (all pictures of her on fb) are because she photoshops herself every time. And apparently everyone does it. She has also had her children's school photos altered to make them more perfect!!!

No-one is real anymore.

People photoshop their own FB photos!? It has never occurred to me.

I use photoshop for a living.

It would never occur to me to edit a family photo! Take us as you see us.

To my shame though, now I know this if I had the first clue about how to do it I would probably photoshop every photo I have of me!

Good grief - photoshopping family photographs?! Now I've heard it all.
I will use the 'Red Eye Removal' button so my kids look less like aliens - is that the thin end of the wedge? ::worried::

(See, Tee, :: in deference to you )

Re media and women's images and alteration of said images - it IS really all-pervasive and pernicious.
It took me literally decades to fully understand and make my peace with the fact that I would never look like the 'ideal' advertising woman: I don't have a boyish figure, no matter what weight I am. My legs will never go all the way to my neck, my shoulders will always be broad, my breasts and hips will always.... well, just be there and prevent me from looking like... oh dunno, Keira Knightly or someone.
I spoke to a 7 year old girl recently who is quite into her gymnastics, does 13 hrs/week of it and has just been told she needs to watch what she's eating by her coach . Nought to do with medja, I suppose, but just made me feel quite queasy.