So many evil men...can't stand it

[SplitHeadGirl]

First of all, I know fully well that men will get upset at what I think and am about to say, so I would like to clarify that I am talking about EVIL men, not the good, wonderful dads and granddads and husbands and nice single blokes out there....the ones who I KNOW (my brain, not my gut, tells me so) are in a majority, but who seem to be few (is it their deafening silence?)

But any fool can see that the sheer amount of men, who are prepared to do unspeakable things to women and girls (and boys as well as other men, not to mention the vulnerable and the elderly...wow, the list goes on) is just overwhelming. I read today about Anene Booysen, and I was absolutely heartbroken, but yet not shocked. For men to be so diabolical to women is not shocking anymore, and that is men's greatest tragedy.

I have two little daughters, and a little son, and I fear for them at the hands of men. Not women...just men.

I feel like I am thinking out loud with this post, so no worries if no one feels they can respond. I just wish I didn't feel so helpless at the tsunami of male violence.

Sorry what happened to you Grennie, and any others.
I do think fwiw, our opinions of the world are shaped by what happened to us and to others we know. So it is incredibly difficult to know accurately what is happening in the whole of Britain.
And I do think that kim makes a good point, that if we are studying this sort of stuff and reading up about it, we can get either a skewed opinion or a more accurate one! And not being able to quantify something also doesnt help.
I am going to say something that maybe peole wont agree with. That some violence happens in geographical pockets. So if you live in one of those pockets, you can think the whole of Britain is shaped that way. And if you dont live in one of those pockets, you think that most of Britain is not so violent. The county I live in, and I guess a lot of other counties, has some notorious parts and the rest seems generally ok.

Yes there are notorious parts I agree. So being attacked on the street is more likely in some areas. Domestic violence and child abuse happens everywhere though and affects a lot of girls and women.

I agree with you, trish - some areas have a higher incidence of violence than others. But if I told you that I had a very middle class upbringing, and live in a very naice village in the South East...? Full of the sort of MC parents that are supposedly the MN demographic.

It seems there is a want to dismiss this - maybe self preservation? On this thread, on the one hand we're told that "only" 4.5% of men in the US are rapists (although I haven't been given a source for that figure), and that "only" 4% of Uk people will experience violence.

But on the other, accepted figures tell us that 25% of women will be the victim of domestic violence. Between 1 in 4 & 1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetime.

While I accept that each domestic abuser/rapist will have more than one victim, the two sides don't tally.

"The ones who are close to me I would know."

No you wouldn't.

This is in answer to armyofpenguins. Yes I would know almost certainly if the women around me were in abusive marriages. They have been married 20-30 years and more. The one who we disapproved of most who had a very poor upbringing with an alcoholic father has actually turned out to be a great husband and father to his children. He would do anything for them.

The stuff in films, computer games, literature, porn, art... that glamourisation.

I agree with you there . I've been against films showing sexual violence since it first started in the 60s. It's tv programmes as well. My wife watches "Criminal Minds" and it's on in the background while I'm on my computer. I find the scenes of violence against women to be distressing. People say that banning it would be censorship but I think if only one in a million men is influenced enough to want to do it then that is too much. The same with young lads being able to view nasty porn on the internet. I would also ban that.

But on the other, accepted figures tell us that 25% of women will be the victim of domestic violence. Between 1 in 4 & 1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetime.

I think the disparity comes from the 4% (people who are victims of violence) relates to people experiencing violence in one year, whereas the 4.5% (people who commit violence) relates to whole of life.

Domestic violence/abuse happens behind closed doors. I have 2 close friends whose marriages have broken down in the past year. Following the split, one has confided that she was emotionally and financially abused. She has miraculously been able to stop taking antidepressants since he left. The other has revealed that she was raped repeatedly during her 12 year marriage.

I had no idea.

I would have those things banned too inde. I was shocked when I first came onto mumsnet, quite how many women were not against porn, and actually even watched it with their men. There were only 3 or 4 things that surprised me on mumsnet, and that was one of them. Another one was actually how many women had been raped.

Domestic violence/abuse happens behind closed doors.

I know that Sabrina, that is why I said almost certain. We have been very closely involved with them through thick and thin for 20 + years though and we know their traits inside out. We took a bit of convincing that one of them was a good sort but having seen him action for thirty years and seen how selfless he is I trust him totally.

Nobody's accusing your friend of violence, inde. Nobody in their wildest imagination would say all men are dv behind closed doors - I know my dh isn't.

I'm just saying that it's scary what does go on in secret, and how in some circumstances even close friends don't realise it - because abusive men can be all charm & bonhomie in social situations - it's all part of the manipulation that makes his spouse "excuse" and forgive what he does to her in private.

"feminism has taken away some choices from women rather than doing the opposite."

Feminism hasn't taken choices away from women. Contrary to MRA propaganda, there is no feminist government promoting feminist policies anywhere on earth. Any choices which are being restricted, aren't being restricted by feminism, they're being restricted by governments and institutions which are overwhelmingly dominated by men.

Anyone who believes that however well they know friends, they'd definitely know if abuse was involved in their relationships, is kidding themselves.

Really, no-one can ever know. Right up until the time a couple splits, the efforts they make to present a united, happy front to the world are herculean. However close they are to friends, they never, ever speak of the big issue in their marriage, precisely because they know that by speaking of it, they will completely and totally change the image of their relationship in the eyes of their friends and that once spoken of, you can't unspeak of it - it's irrevocable. So they don't do it ever unless they know for sure that it's broken and there's no going back - they don't want something that they may feel is a temporary issue just now, to still be a factor in how their friends look at their relationship a decade down the line, when they fondly imagine it will have become a tiny blip a long way in the past and not the major issue they fear their friends will forever regard it. It's perfectly possible for people to live together for decades in an abusive relationship without ever speaking of it and without people outside their relationship knowing.

And even if people have split up, they don't necessarily say then - they don't want the questions as to why they didn't get out earlier, or don't want the kids to know etc.

There is also an issue of residual feelings of 'loyalty' - someone may well have been dreadful in a relationship, but the 'leaver' recognises other qualities about that person on is okay about not compromising those other admirable qualities to others.
And, once the process of leaving is in train or complete, one only wishes to look forward (that's the direction of travel) and not pick over bones specific to that relationship.
I'd left someone 'universally admired' years ago, for good reason, and both of those factors were in play. When I was met with faces, I could only think 'if you only knew'..apart from family and v close friends I said nothing.

of course these were people who would never see ex- again, so that was fine.

I don't believe there is a huge disparity between the numbers of abusive/violent men and abusive/violent women, I'd guess that the numbers are fairly even.
Women have just as much capacity as men for torture and sexual abuse, there are particular pathological traits that feature only in men afaik but only 10-15 years ago it was unthinkable that a woman would sexually abuse a child (without male influence) but we know that to be untrue now.
I just think that men have had far more opportunity for mass murder and rape, when things are more equal ( I remember reading about a NA tribe whose women were the ones who practiced torture and sexual cruelty to their captives and would skin children alive in front of them) women are every bit as capable of extreme cruelty.

Humans act in appalling and inhuman ways, it's not just a male proclivity.

As for OP - to say you are not afraid of your children coming to harm at the hands of women is very foolish indeed, as plenty of recent cases of abuse at nurseries etc. have proven.

Bela, you've managed to find one paper written in 1906 as evidence of women being as violent as men. It rather reminds me of misogynists who trot out the old Kipling "the female of the species is deadlier than the male" tosh quote so misused ever since.

You can say things like that till the cows come home, it doesn't make it true. Women simply do not carry out as much violence as men.

Also, in that tribe, it wasn't the "women who...". All the members of that tribe were warriors, including the women. It's not like the men sat around whittling little forks while the women tortured people. They had a way of life to protect, and that doubtless included a fair amount of killing. This tribe seems to have been pretty equal all things considered.

Bela - anyone working 'in the field' knew of female sexual abuse of children, and it's massively sliver of a profile when compared to males. It was def, thinkable and indeed evidenced. What is true though is that authorities had little idea on how to process it.

And I've given my opinion that men have historically had more opportunity (and social conditioning) for violent behaviour.

Are you denying that plenty of women are abusing children and grooming teenagers? I'd hazard a guess that the figures are totally under
represented and that the actual figures would be shockingly high.
I can't believe I'm being called misogynist in my views for pointing out that women are also capable of extremely evil acts, rape occurs even in female only enviroments .

I know how evil some men can be, my sister's ex husband was an abusive psychopath, I also know how good men can be, like my husband, my brothers/BIL and my FIL.

The times I've heard "a woman would never do that" in conversations about sex abuse and violence, when in fact they would and they do.

" I'd hazard a guess that the figures are totally under
represented and that the actual figures would be shockingly high."

I'd be genuinely interested in how you arrive at that conclusion.

Myth #3: Domestic violence is committed almost entirely by men, and lesbian relationships are gentler and provide women a refuge from male patriarchal dominance and violence.

Actually, the evidence is virtually undisputed that domestic violence is at least as common in lesbian relationships as it is in heterosexual ones. For example, a 1997 survey of 1,099 lesbians found that 52 percent of the respondents had been abused by a female lover or partner and that 30 percent admitted having abused a female lover or partner. Of those who had been victims of abuse, more than half (51.5 percent) reported that they also had been abusive toward their partners ("Lie and Gentle warrior: Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships," Journal of Social Science Research, Vol. 15).

In another survey of lesbians who had had previous relationships with men, 45 percent reported that they had experienced physical aggression from their most recent female partner alone, while only 32 percent had ever experienced any aggression from any male partner. According to St. Joseph's University sociology professor Claire Renzetti, lesbian batterers "display a terrifying ingenuity in their selection of abuse tactics, frequently tailoring the abuse to the specific vulnerabilities of their partners" ("Violent Betrayal: Partner Abuse in Lesbian Relationships").

To their credit, even the X Project – whose Web site and public materials contain scores of questionable statements about men and domestic violence – cites Renzetti's research findings that "Violence in gay/lesbian relationships occurs at about the same frequency as violence in heterosexual relationships." Over the past 30 years feminists have often played an admirable role in pushing for societal acceptance for gays and lesbians. However, feminists have shamefully turned their backs on battered lesbians, and have stifled the attempts of activists to address lesbian domestic violence.

Feminism hasn't taken choices away from women. Contrary to MRA propaganda, there is no feminist government promoting feminist policies anywhere on earth. Any choices which are being restricted, aren't being restricted by feminism, they're being restricted by governments and institutions which are overwhelmingly dominated by men.

Judging by a lot of threads here on mumsnet where women get accused of being subordinate or stepford wife types for choosing to stay at home looking after the children, cooking and cleaning then I think feminism does make some women feel that these choices are wrong. Some women feel they should be out working because that is what promotes their independence, regardless of whether they actually would be happier staying at home. These are the ideas that feminism has thrust upon society.
The mere idea that a woman might want to be a SAHM, stay home, cook, clean and educate her children and her husband go to work and earn the money is seen as old fashioned and often laughed at.

Because it's likely that we're in a similar position ( now, regarding female abusers) to the one 20+ years ago where there were far less reports of child sex abuse in general because of the "shame" and victim blaming culture that enabled Saville et al to abuse freely.
There is still a nasty undercurrent of not taking victims of female abusers seriously, especially boys, I've heard grown men and women say that boys are "lucky" to be groomed by adult women There are still a huge number of people who believe that women don't sexually abuse or torture others without a male influence somewhere in the background.

Domestic violence by women to men is also way under-reported, I work with a lovely young man who is freshly out of an abusive relationship, he'd been with her for 6 years since the age of 19 ( she's a few years older) and he's been physically attacked by her multiple times, when he finally left, she told him she was going to stab herself and tell the police that he'd done it - when I asked him why he hadn't reported her attacks, he said who was going to believe him, a young, strong, fit man ?

"The mere idea that a woman might want to be a SAHM, stay home, cook, clean and educate her children and her husband go to work and earn the money is seen as old fashioned and often laughed at!

There isn't much of that on here at all thankfully, only nutters like Xenia spout rubbish like that.
Choosing to stay at home and raise a family is just as feminist ( and as important) as going out to work.

Norude, there aren't many posters who take that view.