So many evil men...can't stand it

[SplitHeadGirl]

First of all, I know fully well that men will get upset at what I think and am about to say, so I would like to clarify that I am talking about EVIL men, not the good, wonderful dads and granddads and husbands and nice single blokes out there....the ones who I KNOW (my brain, not my gut, tells me so) are in a majority, but who seem to be few (is it their deafening silence?)

But any fool can see that the sheer amount of men, who are prepared to do unspeakable things to women and girls (and boys as well as other men, not to mention the vulnerable and the elderly...wow, the list goes on) is just overwhelming. I read today about Anene Booysen, and I was absolutely heartbroken, but yet not shocked. For men to be so diabolical to women is not shocking anymore, and that is men's greatest tragedy.

I have two little daughters, and a little son, and I fear for them at the hands of men. Not women...just men.

I feel like I am thinking out loud with this post, so no worries if no one feels they can respond. I just wish I didn't feel so helpless at the tsunami of male violence.

It's also okay to explore the reasons which explain why one demographic routinely commits far more violence than any other demographic, and why that demographic consistently targets another demographic.

how do you know most men aren't rapists
FFS

Kim - as has been said upthread, to fix a problem, you need to name and identify it.

People seem to be resistant to thinking any other than "Some men do bad things, because they are bad and society has no impact on this whatsoever".

Feminists say that no, society plays a huge role, both in the occurance of and the reaction to this violence and that we need to realize this if things are going to change.

This change will not happen if we can't think beyond the concept of "a few men being bad apples".

Scallop, you should identify gender. Of course.

Not all men Bod. But if we define rape as including coercion to women to have sex when they don't want to, then a lot of men do rape women.

Men are not born likely to be more violent than women. It is not something inherent to men. It is our society that takes baby boys and turns some of them into violent men.

Greenie, would start with the well educated when trying to solve the problem of violence?

Ah Grennie, my own experience sadly enough bears out the refrain that most men are rapists. Growing up, I literally did not know a single man who was not a rapist, did not grope by body against my will, etc etc. It took me a long time to find any boy or man who behaved as if he thought I was human, and not a subservient boinktoy who existed merely to be his assistant.

My prior assumption in this thread was merely an attempt to... put things in a way that others who were lucky enough to not have my similar history, could relate to.

And btw, I was raped by men who went home to their wives and daughters and sisters, who clearly thought he was a "nice guy who didn't do things like that".

I know your brother, and he is a rapist.

Most women sadly, have been coerced into sex they did not want, with a man.

The stranger rape in a dark alley is relatively rare. But that is not the type of rape most women who are raped experience.

well, I didn't mean Greenie's brother. I meant, to all those women in this thread who have the luxury of not knowing how their male friends and family members behaved behind closed doors. You can all tell yourselves that you don't know any rapists. I have never had that luxury.

I don't believe in evil and I don't think it is a useful concept. Better to understand and work on finding solutions from there than to write things off as evil, something for which there is no solution.

Women can be toxic and abusive and vile too. It is largely a societal problem. We are all responsible for doing our bit as individuals and as a society. And we all fall short in some respects.

If you are a parent then you need to bring up your children to be respectful of themselves and others whatever their gender.

Yeah the prob with that BB is that once again you are refusing to name the problem. You're refusing to acknowledge the gendered nature not of evil, but of violence.

"how do you know most men aren't rapists?"

I assume they're not based on the known figures.

1 in 4 women get raped or sexually assaulted by men. If every rapist assaulted only 1 woman, then that would mean that 25% of men are rapists. But we know that on the whole, rapists are repeat offenders; they establish a modus operandi which enables them to rape over and over again and get away with it. Estimates range between 1 in 20 to 1 in 70 men, the figures by their nature can't be all that accurate. But the worst case scenario tells me that if there are 20 men in a room, 19 of them won't be rapists, the best case tells me that in a room of 70, 69 of them won't be.

Obv, statistically not necessarily in every case. And of course, the 1 in 4 figure is based on women who have been able to be identified as rape victims and it may be higher because they may not answer the question in the case of marital/ relationship rape.

Coerced sex is rarely seen as rape by the criminal justice system. I wouldn't report coerced rape. And yet it is probably the most common type of rape.

I think the percentage of men who commit sexual violence against women at least once is shown here:

prostitution.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004119

'Coerced' sex isn't seen as rape by the CJS because it isn't 'rape'.

Really Loveday? What is it then?

I don't understand your question,i've said what it isn't, and by law which is what was being quoted that's correct. I'm not seeing what is so controversial about that unless you want to mix up coersion and consent.

Lovedayisthename is quite right, coerced sex isn't rape. It may not be nice, but rape is a legal term and coerced sex isn't it. I may get coerced into buying something for one of my kids, persuaded into it when really I'm not convinced I should be buying it. But that's not theft, as if they'd gone into my purse and taken the money without my consent.

I think Sigmund is right, this is a hateful thread and makes me very uncomfortable. Both some of the vile stuff that's being said about men and the awful abuse thrown at Roxanne who stuck her head above the parapet to disagree.

I'm referring to comments like the OP who talked of living in a scum pit of men. And men being the most dangerous species on the planet.

If you asked a native American, South American or African what the worst species on the planet was they might say "the European". Europeans committed many acts of genocide against native peoples, but they committed none against us. Am I meant to be wringing my hands in shame as a European??

In terms of death toll, I guess the most dangerous group on the planet are motorists. Tens of thousands of innocents killed every day by careless drivers. But I'm a driver, am I meant to be marching on the streets with shame trying to stop the carnage.

Get a grip for crying out loud. Rapists are scum, but for every woman raped there are many who have wonderful men in their lives, husbands, boyfriends, dads, brothers and sons.

Sorry, but this tirade of hatefulness isn't feminism in my book.

Coerced sex may not legally be rape, but it is still rape.

Who is asking decent men to wring their hands in shame? We're talking about how to tackle male violence, which is a problem.

Brensio, there's nothing hateful in pointing out that the majority of violence, especially severe violence, is perpertrated by men. It's a fact.

Unlike 'men invented the internet', which is not.

'I'm a bit stunned by Sigmaund's claim that "nice middle class men" aren't violent towards women'

I didn't say that.

'and the part about "underclass women raising their sons like dogs" - lovely bit of classism and women blaming there.'

Because underclass women raise their sons beautifully? And I do blame them. Fuck yes. And the feminists that try to shame me for saying it's wrong to say so, thus enabling the miserable cycle to repeat itself.

And no I didn't say all of them.

'Most women sadly, have been coerced into sex they did not want, with a man.'

Seriously. I mean seriously. How can this statement be allowed to stand? How the hell do you KNOW? I don't understand it. So fucking grim.

Wish this forum was un-moderated sometimes. Going to have to leave this thread now. This, the stuff about most men being rapists, this here is hate speech. You proudly de-humanise men, ALL of them. Wtf kind of mindset thinks that it's OK. What is WRONG with you.

Jesus Wept.

Hmm, I think 'coerced sex' could fit the definition of rape (UK law).

It's not 'reasonable' to believe that there is consent if you've essentially forced someone to consent. Then again, it's in the interpretation. That's why 'consent' is problematic.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1

And lots of men do coerce women into being penetrated by various means. They brag about it. There's been stuff in lads mags 'how to trick your girlfriend into anal' etc. Getting a woman drunk. Telling her you love her/want to marry her (in days gone by anyway).

It might be a minority of men in the UK, but it's not a small minority.

Aren't we chucking round terms and claiming them to mean what we want them to mean a la Humpty Dumpty?
Greenie, you said the CJS doesn't recognise coerced as rape. Breslo gave an illustrated example as to how you are making unjustified leaps, in terminology.

That thing about collective male 'guilt' has been around for decades - I recall seeing a cartoon in the Guardian mid 80's and having to ask a feminist friend what it meant. Even she wasn't convinced by her explanation.

Where I am worried is I think this discussion does have somewhere of value to go. Most violence is committed by men, and I do think it is essential to ask why. As many have said you have to identify the problem to then go ahead and make the attempt to correct it.

Now what I am about to say next I must choose my words very carefully. I think when we focus the issue more on the violence men enact towards women we could be missing a crucial dimension to the discussion. Now it is not my intention to de-emphasise discussion away from violence towards women, and it would be equally daft if discussion shifted to male to male violence.

It would be my aim to analyse violence in totality. Now it is perfectly reasonable to treat different crimes differently, after all the motivations of a rapist I would imagine are different from those of a mugger who stabs and murders his victim, and as such it is quite right we look at the different dimensions of those crimes in an effort to understand them with a view to forming preventative corrections in society.

However may it not also be possible that there are certain elements that all crimes of violence share? Say for example "othering" as has been mentioned many times up thread. Or for example I remember reading a correlation between arson and rape, as in some arsonists are also rapists (or vice versa depending on how you view it).

The thing is as valuable as I think discussions like this could be it is important not to get bogged down on one aspect of the discussion. If it was as simple as gender the solutions would be easier, but my suspicion is that is only the beginning and we must all extend our thinking to encompass a lot more.

Where the victim's gender comes into it may also come round to be hugely relevant to greater understanding of the issue. For example in the US in 2008 males were 4 times as likely to be murdered, why? Now please don't confuse me as a self appointed authority on violence, because I have literally no idea I am simply interested in seeing this discussion going somewhere of value.