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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

999 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/10/2013 12:05

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

OP posts:
youretoastmildred · 30/10/2013 22:42

MissFenella I think it is because calling non-noble women "ladies" implies that there is something wrong or unseemly about "women".

Jane Austen characters call themselves "women" even when they are 18 or so, there was nothing unseemly about it then

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/10/2013 22:42

Hi MissF.

I was sort of hoping this thread could be good for asking questions, so don't apologize.

My issue with 'ladies' is exactly what you say. Others might differ.

Basically, to me, 'lady' is a term that originally implied someone was behaving in a very specific, gendered way.

I also reckon, just from personal experience, that some people who're quite sexist will tend to refer to 'ladies' when they think they're being very polite, and so the word is tainted for me by association with stuff like 'You ladies do love shopping, lol!'

Obviously people do use it just because until recently it was thought polite, but I think that is changing.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/10/2013 22:43

Night joyful, hope the snotty one does let you get some rest.

OP posts:
ShriekingGnawer · 30/10/2013 22:54

I am inadvertently watching Tool Academy. Help me...

ShriekingGnawer · 30/10/2013 22:59

I actually think this is the most depressing thing I have ever watched.

HalloweenDidi · 30/10/2013 23:27

How can you lot have posted this much just since this morning? It's taken me about half an hour to plough through this thread and now I'm too tired to make any remotely sensible contributions.

Does anybody else find that being a feminist/being more aware of feminism ruins their enjoyment of things? I was at the theatre last night and before I started lurking on fwr I would have thoroughly enjoyed it, had a great night and gone home satisfied. Now though I did enjoy it but I also spent a fair bit of time wondering why 2 of the only 3 women in a cast of 12 were wearing skimpy leotards and were basically only brought on to provide eye-candy, while all of the men in the cast had larger speaking parts and were completely clothed (well - one of them wore a sparkly leotard for one song). Loads of films and tv series have been ruined the same way as I wonder why all the main characters are men or why the women all need to be saved by men.

ThePitOfStupid · 30/10/2013 23:53

Didi - yes!

TombOfMummyBeerest · 31/10/2013 01:01

Hi all...lost track of the old thread (my internet has been shit) but I'm back for a round!

Confession time: when I was pregnant- -and was sick as all hell--I prayed that I didn't have a daughter Blush

My mother and sister value two things: beauty and money. If you have both, so much the better. If you have one, you must seek out the other. My sister is traditionally beautiful. ..me, not so much. My mother favours her because she's obsessed with hair, makeup etc.and so they bond. They're also total fucking narcissists

I love my DD and am proud as punch of her, but my mother and sister are hellbent on making her a Barbie. I hate that. She's a baby. Let her be a baby!

breathes

Another round please!

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 31/10/2013 06:11

Didi. Yes. But I think I have always felt that. It's so hard not to say something in these situations too. So much entertainment uses females as eye candy, there for the enjoyment of men (and some women I suppose- is it more awkward/ difficult/ confusing to be a feminist if one is a lesbian?) and I'm forever huffing about it pointing it out and DH is forever rolling his eyes "but that's what ppl want to see. It's nice, you've got issues"
No. That's what men want to see. It's nice for men it's restrictive and potentially demeaning for women IMHO.
Does make watching of much telly quite a strain.

Sometimes I shut up for a quiet life Halloween Wink

Also, I fear being accused of making these comments out of jealousy.
I bet Cheryl Cole never complains about the use of female eye candy Halloween Grin

BerstieSpotts · 31/10/2013 08:20

Didi yes absolutely. Sometimes it really upsets me/pisses me off. Couple of examples (which I can't rant about anyone too because they'll think I'm mad) - basically everybody in my generation watched Scrubs when it was on E4 and found it really hilarious. I remember seeing a couple of episodes at someone's house, but we had crappy TV signal and couldn't get freeview - it was back when freeview was only just starting to be broadcast. Most people had sky, but we didn't. So I missed it.

Much later, about 2 years ago, DP had them all on DVD so he invited me to watch it with him as it's one of his favourite programmes and he thought I would like it. Well, I didn't even get through episode one. I found all of the references to non-cast women really abhorrent (something about one of the characters having a date and it was all centred around how he was going to get laid) AND the other theme running through the episode (I guess the series) was that the young male intern was doing well but although his female colleague/fellow student was doing everything he was, it wasn't going smoothly for her, she constantly felt incompetent/inferior to him and to boot the male supervisor was a complete dick to her the whole way through. There were some scenes where he was shouting quite abusively at her and it actually made me feel pretty crap because there were such strong parallels to actual violence/abuse that women suffer all the fricking time. But no, in a TV show it's hilarious.

Aaaargh! I actually got quite tearful about not being able to enjoy it and I wasn't sure if I was annoyed at myself for noticing stuff that nobody else seems to notice or annoyed at the whole world for being stupid and male-centric and that there was nothing left. It's not even overtly sexist! It's Scrubs, FFS! But now I can't stand Zach Braff's stupid smug face and I won't watch anything else with him in it Blush

Then recently, DS has been into a couple of games on the phone/tablet, Angry Birds and then Plants vs Zombies. They're nice, logic or physics based puzzle games, no violence, bright, colourful, generally fine. And then someone bought him the Angry Birds annual and (apart from being riddled with spelling errors) it had little profiles of all the birds and I was really pissed off to see that they had GIVEN THE BIRDS GENDERS. I mean, seriously, FFS! And ALL of them were male, except one bird who lays an (exploding) egg as her "attack". The males, of course, have really varied and different personalities and the egg-laying bird's personality is that "she likes to look after all of the other birds and make tea which calms the (angriest) bird down" Angry

And then - Plants vs Zombies 2 has just come out, and unlike the last game where the little guide to all the plants was along the lines of "This plant is good against X zombie" and a little funny story, they're all "He/She" AND AGAIN, all of the plants are male, except the sunflower, which doesn't attack or defend, it provides sun which is sort of a currency in the game. Plants don't even HAVE a gender in real life!

It just makes my brain hurt sometimes. I've come to the conclusion that, far from "not seeing dirt", men just don't see sexism. Because it doesn't happen to them. And hence they keep churning it out because they literally don't notice that they're being sexist by totally excluding women from any kind of picture.

Bunnylion · 31/10/2013 08:51

That new google advert, where the boy is scared of public speaking but through using the internet he finds Churchill and so also his voice is really sweet. Until - LIKE EVERY OTHER STORY ON TV - it leads to him "getting the girl".

There are always these beautiful women/girls falling for unattractive boys/men. Or incredibly sexually attractive young women with very plain older men. It's like TV and film allow the boys club to make up their little pervy dream world.

MavisG · 31/10/2013 08:56

I like 'lady/ladies' in some contexts. I like my children to use 'lady'/'gentleman' when loudly talking about strangers, I use the terms myself when I want to be formal/deferential - gentleman as much as lady though. It clangs to me when people refer to 'that man over there' loud enough for him to hear, when they've never met, particularly if he is older. I like the respect 'lady/gentleman' can convey. I was shocked when one friend laughed when my son called the postman a gentleman, and made a comment revealing her to be a colossal snob.
I think misogynists can produce a faux-conspiratorial, patronising 'wimmin' with as much alacrity as a 'laydees'.

MavisG · 31/10/2013 08:58

(I am lower middle class English, pardon-lounge-toilet to my core - I suspect that is v relevant!)

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 31/10/2013 09:16

Bunnylion exactly.
Mavis I was thinking about the term "lady" v "woman" this week because I seem to have taught 3 yo DS to say "lady" and " man"
I tried getting him to say "woman" and it sounded ..... So knowing and adult Confused

UptoapointLordCopper · 31/10/2013 09:23

I, on the other hand, can say anything I like, because I am foreign and it's a bonus that I speak English at all. Hmm I don't know if I'm a woman first or a foreigner first. It's nice to be confusing. Especially since I am actually quite proficient in swearing in English. Grin Best language to swear in, I think.

MavisG · 31/10/2013 09:29

I know lots of people who teach 'lady' and 'man', Amanda, & I consciously used 'gentleman' as I wanted to model equality - ladies are not delicate, it's purely a formal/deferential term.

PacificDogwood · 31/10/2013 09:47

Didi, yes, but being more aware of being feminist in my thinking also allows me to see and appreciate my strength and that of all sorts of amazing women. And men.

I take full advantage of the 'forrin' bonus Grin. After 20 years in this country I am still Shock at the subtleties of what language conveys - I am just not as aware of the implications of 'toilet/lounge/tea/lady' or their equivalent in my first language. 'Tis v convenient at times.

That google ad spoils the effect of its overall to-be-lauded message (good preparation leads to good presentation and improved confidence) but that vomit-inducing ending - stupid to the nth degree Hmm.

There are so many examples of that: toy advertising just makes my teeth itch almost every single time and how men's moisturisers need to be quick and easy to use whereas women' need to be indulgent/luxurious etc I just don't get.
Depressingly, that kind of advertising seems to work though. And as long as the bottom line in the bottom line IYSWIM and we (the general public or the majority of the general public) buy into this crap it will continue IMO.

And yes, men are blind to everyday sexism.
'Same pay for same work' is easy enough to agree with, but the subtler forms of women not achieving the same as men in spite of same ability are much more difficult to pin down.
I work in a profession which tradtionally was v male dominated, but this has changed dramatically in the last 10-20 years. More female student intake than males and still most of the most senior positions are held by men Hmm

Grennie · 31/10/2013 09:52

I am popping in. Getting too grumpy in the rest of mumsnet.

I don't think it is more confusing to be a feminist if you are a lesbian. You don't have to objectify women or leer at them. You can be attracted to someone and treat them with respect. So you might think someone is attractive. But that doesn't mean you stare, leer or make comments. And it also doesn't mean you want to watch strip shows, etc

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 31/10/2013 09:53

Mitchell and Webb did a good sketch on advertising for women/ men.
I can't link on this but it was amusingly insightful.

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker · 31/10/2013 09:55

Berstie I feel your pain. Scrubs is shit for the reasons you say. This whole gendered animals thing pisses me off so much. It is one of those things that you see and then you can't stop seeing it. Virtually all animals in children's literature/films are male unless they are looking after baby animals or being saved in which case they are female. Rage-inducing.

The thing about The Escape Artist (remembered the name now!) on Monday was it was set in the courts (in the main part) and yet there were men everywhere. Part of me wonders whether it was a realistic depiction and Baroness Helena Kennedy was right in that the law was made by men, for men and is run by men (I know she is right btw) or whether this was a media depiction so it was just male-centric.

The main character had a son who was at an all-boys school so yet more men everywhere. Getting paid. Getting noticed. Being accepted as the default.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 31/10/2013 09:58

Fair point Grennie
I just wonder whether the sheer availability of women makes it complicated.
I was watching Lewis on sky plus. I like a good crime drama (or a bad one tbh) but I often watch it just because I love to look at laurence Fox

Is that objectifying him? Is it wrong?

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 31/10/2013 09:58

(fasting today)

Grennie · 31/10/2013 10:00

I think looking at someone attractive on TV is fine. He is not stripping or performing sexually, he is an actor.

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker · 31/10/2013 10:02

Lawrence Fox isn't in Lewis because he is attractive (I am sure it helps, though). He is portraying a thoughtful detective who does stuff. I am sure that is part of the attraction too.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 31/10/2013 10:02

That's how I see it Grennie