The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

Well, I know a very nice Wendy [misses point]
I hate threads like that and am glad that I did not come across that one.
I had to back out slowly from the Angel Feathers one...

Friday night alcohol has a lot to answer for .

Here's a feminist question: DH and I are disagreeing about a potential purchase. I don't want it, he does. Our finances are entirely shares although he earns more than me. I don't actually believe that one of us should tell the other one 'No', we are both adults. I have made quite clear what my position is. Surely it is now over to him?? Get is anyway - I'll deal with it. Don't get it - I'll be delighted.
He keeps asking for my approval or for me to change my mind. Ack.

Yes pacific I would say the ball is now in his court.
(and itispossible to rack up a sizeable credit card bill in Victoria's secret )

Annoying though. I would love a secret weapon for making DH do what I want without any of the culpability fallout for bending his will.

He is not very good with the whole 'debating the issue' (his family have never spoken a meaningful word to each other in as long as I have known them i.e. 18 years ). He was shocked when he first met my folks and there was shouting lively debate across the dinner table - all in good spirit, but passionate .
I don't think his debating skills will improve with time and I don't hold it against him much, but it is hard work sometimes. And he does take the hump that I don't just agree and validate what he wants...

I suppose it depends what it is - if it's something like a house or a car or a dog that you can either only really have one of and therefore need to share, or will affect your lives pretty drastically, then no, you need to agree on a common ground even if one of you is happier than the other. If it's something that's only going to affect one of you but is expensive (like some kind of luxury gadget perhaps) then you just need to agree that there is room in the budget for it even if one person thinks it's a totally ridiculous waste of said budget, (with unspoken agreement that somewhere along the line the situation will/should come along but in reverse) and if it's somewhere in the middle, then I suppose you have to work out where the line lies... but yes, you can't really tell him "no" since you're not the person who gets to decide that!

If it's a general issue then maybe it would make more sense to keep spending money separate, so that he doesn't feel he has to ask permission?

On the Wendy thing, TBH, it just makes me that grown women are referring to "friendship wreckers" and "being forced out of a group" - is it just me?! Do I have ridiculously super-reasonable friends? I can't imagine having a friend past the age of about 14 who is dependent on a "friendship group" or it being possible for someone else to "wreck" a friendship between me and another person. Surely the relationship is between you and that person!

Hello!

Just about recovered from having been out last night...

But regret having read the first few posts of the thread about a DS wearing a Hello Kitty onsie...

I don't know what angel feathers are. Read half of the OP and left it. Do I want to know?

I remember "friendship groups" from primary school! "I'm not going to be your friend if you are friends with X or Y" etc etc. I remember thinking that was a bit rubbish and it's one of those opinions that have not changed in 30 years. They always told me I was stubborn.

Well there are some super unreasonable people about but I have to say if someone came along and stopped my friends being friends with me then I wouldn't consider them to have been very good friends anyway and would go and get new nicer ones. Admittedly I can't think of an adult situation where that has happened.

Being 'forced out of a group' is slightly different in that it's just a very emotive way of saying 'I didn't actually have much in common with those people and so we don't see much of each other any more'.

It's all a bit female stereotype though isn't it? Women are bitches/needy/emotional wrecks.

Sadly I have worked with people who have their own group and even have meetings to decide who is in or out of the group. I think if someone is the victim of that kind of behavior I have a lot of sympathy for them. I was never comfortable being in that kind of clique but eventually discovered how to be the rogue outsider who was accepted and welcome in most groups without being the inner circle type. I'm much happier this way. And I was always called stubborn as well

Kickass, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but you do seem to have come across more than your fair share of dickheads. ?

I have never understoon 'friendships groups' . Surely you are friends with whoever you like and they might be friends with other people, and sometimes you hang out together and sometimes you don't? And things can shift and change with time.
I have never ever been in any kind of 'exclusive' clique - sounds wearing.

And yes, kissass, I am with you, not running with the A-List is very liberating and comfortable. Even at school I was at the edge of the 'in crowd', not quite part of it, not quite fitting in, but tolerated. I was quite often . And had my friends amongst the geeks .
Geeks rock!

understoon = understood

I am not drunk yet, honest.

I've never particularly understood the 'friendship group' thing either. I have always had friends but the last time I had a falling out and declared I wouldn't be somebody's friend was when I was 12 (I remember it clearly, we were friends again within a week ). I've never minded not being part of the 'in-crowd' though, at school my friends were the geeks and misfits, we seemed to gather people up who looked like they needed a friend or were in danger of being bullied. I think we were quite an unusual group at school, I've certainly never seen a group quite as varied in any school I've worked at. Since I left school I've been friends with people I work with and other people I have things in common with so some 'mummy' friends to discuss children with, some music friends from orchestra, some friends from dance class, some friends from Guides. If our interests no longer collide and we have less in common then we see each other less often and might go our separate ways but there's no animosity about it.

pacific I hate to disappoint you but as a teacher I don't come up with new and interesting ways to tell you your little darling is a pleasure to teach. I say the same thing to everyone with a few personal anecdotes to make you feel like your little darling stands out. (I'm joking, of course your little darling is so special I couldn't help but love him )

Oh, I have no illusions about my Darling Offspring, Anti, and really don't require buttering up by their battle-weary teachers they are expeptional of course

I had a friendship group at school we were the unpopular freak group :( and and it was EXHAUSTING because people were always falling out with other people and then you had to pick sides because they refused to hang out with each other and because you're basically forced to be together all day every day you can't just meet up with people one on one because everyone is there together. Ugh. I hated friendship politics at school. I don't even see any of those people any more I wish I'd been one of the cool kids who could flit between groups.

It's funny how there is a subtle but very potent difference between 'a group of friends' and 'friendship group', isn't it?
Berstie, that sounds exhausting - almost like if a couple split up and you used to be friends with both, but now you have to chose sides...

Doctrine you can say pretty much anything about me if it comes with a glass if wine.

I don't think I attract freaks. I probably do over analyses stuff way too much though. I'm about to start a course about abuse and I suspect that reading how abusers target and control their victims will lead to me being very cynical about everyone, but then I already think most relationships are about power politics anyway. You just se it and feel it more as a child because you aren't as sophisticated at it. Most adults get good enough that we don't really notice or they even know how to make everyone love them.

I didn't mean that you attracted them, just that you were unlucky! Your MIL sounds a nightmare, I've read your past posts about your own family and you know people who vote friends in and out of favour. I think you are due some good karma...

Working with people like that is a pain because you can't escape it, I think school is the same because you are forced together with only location in common, at least at work you are more likely to have similar interests etc (probably dependant on the job to a certain extent). Different from 'friends' who you can stop seeing without any longterm consequences.

And seriously, who comes up with the idea of voting for who you will be friends with? And what kind of people then go along with it? If someone suggested having a friendship vote to me I know who would be top of my list to be voted out!

I had a group of (lovely) friends outside of school, who I mostly still keep in touch with, and I remember on numerous occasions one or another of us being really stressed out because of the friendship group "thing".

I just commented on the "wendy" thread .... am I allowed on here too?!

I can't believe that adults actually vote on whether people can be part of their friendship group or not. How weird is that?!

I think this may be one of the reason's I went into business for myself, I just can't take this sort of immaturity.

Could somebody direct me to the 'Wendy' thread, please? I might just risk a peak.
Votes? Actual votes?? Wow.

Hi, Ilovexmastime

Thing is, MIL appears lovely to most people. It's just if you're one of her offspring that she is so hard to deal with.

The people I worked with were the smokers group. It was kind if a joke, but kind of not. One in particular would walk round school after work collecting up her friends to go to the pub for a drink and a fag, but ignore other people.

I do think that having done a lot of hard thinking about my childhood then I am more sensitive to some things. But then I have often been told that I am of the professionally offended brigade.

It shocked me when I started my MA and I realized that the group of people on my course, who I barely know, I feel more trusting towards than I do many people in rl. But then we're all doing a cuddly wuddly course that isn't really academic.

MIL appears lovely to most people
People with personality disorders are often v skilled manipulators and can accept social norms and mores when it is important to them.
I am not diagnosing her btw, just saying that the fact that she can behave herself proves nothing.
Poor you. And poor your DH.
Your course sounds fascinating if at times harrowing?

Hi PacificDogwood! Here is a link to the Wendy thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1912524-To-think-if-its-ok-to-use-Wendy-to-describe-bullying-women

This one really made me think to be honest.

Just changing the subject completely... can anyone help me come up with a fool proof way (not sure that's exactly what I mean, but you know what I mean!) of explaining to my dad why it's not on to describe a woman as 'mucky'?

He just did, I had a go, and he just doesn't seem to get my point. He's an intelligent man so I must have explained it wrong.... or he's just a dick (that's for the wendy thread followers...)

Oh thanks for that - I'll have a gander.

I am not the right person to ask re semantics - 'tis an interest of mine, but English is not my first language and 'mucky' would simply mean 'in need of a wash' to me