The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

No, don't watch the Lily Allen vid if you have avoided it so far!

Lord Copper, speaking of being nurturing or not, on another thread about demands by schools someone wrote this:

"Message: in order to have DC at school you must practically spend full-time hours providing back-up support, doing admin and making appearances - so only if you are a willing and ready SAHM are you really up to scratch."

This really made me feel better. It pulled something out into the open that I hadn't been realising: that I feel really guilty about not knowing what is going on well enough, because I don't physically go to the school. The newsletters bandy about dates of events, without actual times; they change dates and don't send a message about it; they mention things, but don't tell you what exactly you have to do. Everyone else knows because the information is apparent on the premises of the school - there are notices up, etc (presumably - who the fuck knows). I feel refreshingly pissed off, having read that post, that I can't be expected to know things that require visiting the school twice a day if I have a full time job - instead of feeling guilty for not visiting the school twice a day to scrabble around for scraps of information that they deign to drop.

I am treated very kindly as a bizarre anomaly by dd's teacher and it makes me feel little and patronised. And I do feel bad about it.

I was also talking to a woman colleague the other day and she said that she had to watch herself to stop herself being nice and helpful. I sometimes veer a little too far over to the dark side (better safe than sorry ), but not often enough. People make assumptions that are either based on this belief in the nurturing nature of women, or they are just fucking patronising bastards. I often assume they are both and stamp on their feet (metaphorically speaking).

mildred We wrote letters to the school when DC first started to complain about this changing of time and date at short notice, and they have improved. Now we get a thing at the beginning of the year telling us the important dates.

Still, if anyone expects me to bake anything for the cake sales they can expect to be disappointed. When I bake I want to eat most of it.

Back again, just using the pub to rant. Another rhetorical question really, since we all know the answer.

Why is it, when a women's issue is discussed, and men leap all over the discussion wailing "but this sometimes happens to men too!!", these men don't realise that...

a) if women discuss the issue, work on the issue and actually find a solution to the issue for women, men are likely to find themselves rid of that issue too?

or

b) by demanding that they are recognised in the discussion, they are pretty much just shitting all over this issue, relegating it as irrelevant to them when women suffer from it until men suffer too? It's not important in the least until it might effect them, and then of course the women must fix this problem for them first, before helping themselves.

But, if they could wrap their little egotistical heads around point a), they wouldn't have to waste time ranting a la point b).

It's really just narcissistic posturing, isn't it? If men thought these issues through at all, they would realise that any solution would be of benefit to everyone, not just women. All they want is to shut the discussion down, not contribute in any positive way. "Talk about what's important to me, or about me, or shut up!!!".

Reading through.
Struggling with serious sleep deprivation. I don't think I will ever be fully functioning.

I'm disappointed in Lily's video too mildred. It popped up on my Facebook feed as a 'reply' to the Robin Thicko video, and it just made me despair. Why use semi-naked women to protest about somebody else using similar images? It's a shame, I like Lily, she's clever and funny.

I agree Annie wrt the "what about the menz" thing, which is why I avoid it and switch off. I have pointed out, as you do, that we all benefit when society is more equal. You put it a lot more eloquently than me though. :o

Damn, should've said I did so under a different NN.

I half watched the Lily Allen video yesterday and quite liked it - though I said at the time that the naked dancers was rather . Now I've watched it properly the racism troubles me too. I still rather like some of the lyrics, but the video...

kickass- Your MIL is loony. My MIL is better but has these tendencies. I think that the key is having a DH/DP who will back you 100%. DH had a show down with his mother some years ago and since then she knows exactly where she stands in his order of priorities and what will happen if she pushes it. She still has little sulks, but DH utterly ignores them and gives me full encouragement to do the same. His view is that if she behaves irrationally there is no point wasting either of our time. It one of the many reasons why I love him...

The 'Mummy' in the night or when sick perplexes me too mildred .If my children had one ounce of common sense they would call for Daddy. He has masses more sympathy for routine night wakings than I do. Sickness I am ok with being sympathetic, but random waking I am far more brusque and no nonsense than he ever is.

Tbf, DH absolutely does tidy mess normally, it was definitely mine to clear up as I'd washed out stuff that had leaked shampoo over it and had left it out.

A pissed off text would have been more civilised though!

The video was discussed this morning on Women's hour - especially from a racist point of view. It was interesting discussing structural racism when people don't even realise they are being racist.

yes, my MIL is loony, but also very nasty if pushed into a corner .tbh, there is no way that dh will ever stand up to her - i should say that his childhood was definitely traumatic, and trying to make a stand against a parent who has raised you like that is next to impossible. i have cowered away from her when i can tell she's about to snap, and it can be something as simple as dd saying 'she' instead of 'nana'.
then i get the email from her about how I should sort out dd as she isn't like other kids. No shit, Sherlock, that's why we go to the doctors for diagnoses and support, then get an IEP at school.

and breath.

The whole expectation of primary school that there will be a SAH M to support the entire circus leaves me in a complete rage. I threatened dd's last school with discrimination if they didn't start being more open to families where there wasn't a sahp. it isn't just the ones where both parents work, but for single parents (usually mums) who work. I can imagine how utterly soul destroying it is to feel that your kids don't get as much fun out of school because you have to work to keep everything going. Talk about being doubly disadvantaged. No 2nd parent to work with you raising the kids, AND the school treats your kid like a lesser being because you are a tax paying contributor to society.

I really think that childcare is somewhere that could make a huge difference. Not having childcare is so inhibiting. If you don't earn enough to cover the cost of childcare and bring something home, then basically you will probably never have access to all the opportunities that non-parenting people have, i.e. the ones who work and have someone at home to do childcare, or who don;t live with their children, or who don't have dependent children. I was just taking part in a survey at my college about this - they are trying to get some childcare provision. I pointed out that most people with young kids won't even start to do a degree because how can they? It isn't just having time & money to get someone looking after your kids, it's finding time to study, going to extra classes, meeting other students socially so that you're in the loop, how do you cope if you or your kids are sick? etc etc. Until there is proper support for childcare, there will not be equality. It isn't pregnancy & childbirth that is the main problem - those are relatively short term. It's the decades of childcare that seriously wipe out a woman's ability to earn equal amounts, get out of the house etc.

I think I might walk around in a bubble because I never noticed the primary school expectation that there would be a sahm. Dd1 went to 3 different primary schools due to us moving twice during her primary school career. I never once felt even vaguely guilty that I didn't get to go to assemblies etc, and I don't think dd1 ever noticed that she didn't have anybody going on trips with her. Maybe it helps that all 3 schools have a high proportion of families with either both parents working or single mums who work (like me), so there were loads of parents who couldn't take time off to do everything the school offered. Any big plays had at least 2 performances, one of which was always in the evening so working parents could go to it. Any dates were on newsletters at the start of the year and changes were texted or emailed to parents as far in advance as possible. We were also very lucky that none of dd1's schools have ever required a huge amount of project work or crafty stuff to be done at home.

I went to uni as a single parent when dd1 was little. It was bloody hard work and the only reason I was able to do it was because my dad was retired and was able to do most of my childcare. The uni thought they were great offering to pay a proportion of my childcare bill, but I was living on next to nothing as it was. The student loan and the dependents grant came to £20 per week less than income support, so I was already taking a big financial hit going to uni without trying to pay childcare costs out of that pittance. If I hadn't had my parents around (or a supportive partner who earns enough to pay for childcare) then I would not have been able to get my degree because I wouldn't have been able to afford it. So I would have been stuck in lower paying jobs just because I had a child. Her father faced no such restrictions, even though she is biologically his just as much as mine.

Anti, the set up you describe of the school is sadly unusual, most schools still assume there is someone who can drop everything to help out, and if you don't then it is your kid who feels it most.

And yes to the situation re uni. It is scary how easy it is for women to be left holding the baby, while. He dad gets to live a full life. That seems to happen whether he couple are together or not.

"Feminism's all very well, but women like Margaret Thatcher/Myra Hindley/Eva Braun give women a bad name."

Funny how the absolute legion who are in the news daily for raping, beating, killing, setting people on fire and starting wars never seem to give men a bad name isn't it? Imagine if we said "Look, Hitler and Stalin clearly show that men are dreadful at leading countries. You've had your chance but it'll be women from now on."

Whoops, wrong thread! Am I the only one whose Mumsnet is going crazy in my browser at the moment? Can't post or it opens random threads?

Mine's ok Elephants - therefore, as I don't see a problem, or there is no problem for me, the problem does not exist. I think you are just looking for things to be professionally offended about to excuse your own failings.

Mildred!

Mildred! Behave yourself!

I think we are having an intersectionality issue here: the intersection between this thread and the bingo thread.

I think what school are like depends on the area they serve. We've not had any problems yet (admittedly I was on maternity leave the first year which means I was in the loop then) but most of the time school are pretty good at letting us know what is going on. DB and SIL's kids go to a school that is more mixed, quite a few SAHM and if not a lot of grandparents and SIL says she does feel abit out of the loop sometimes despite having known the teachers since they were all at school together (very much a local school for local people!).

Evening, all!
Another 12 hr day down the mines Pizza is in the oven

We were the last parents leaving DSs' school last night - 'twas parents evening and yes, we did have to meet with 3 sets of teachers (or rather 4 as DS1 has extra input). Our school gives out a list with important date at the beginning of the school year for everything. But then sometimes changes stuff... . At least for yesterday there was a choice of times and yes, our was late appointments.
The poor teachers, how on earth they find new ways of assuring every single set of parents that their little darling is a pleasure to teach and is doing exceedingly well, I don't know . I could never be a teacher, I really couldn't.

I quite like being the 'expected' parents, in fact I'd like to be more involved but cannot because of bastard work, but am lucky that I live and work and send my kids to school all within walking distance to each other. I have some flexibility in my day, so can sometimes just nip out to attend assembly. I like doing it and they like me being there. DH has no chance in hell of ever being able to be there , so he was quite impressed with some of the stuff he saw last night ...

Anyhoo, this is not very feminist musing, is it?

May I have a drink anyway, please?

Has anyone seen the thread about using the name Wendy? Full of people handing out grips etc there's some intersectional it's for you.

Wendy?
What on earth is controversial about the name Wendy??
Like it or don't like it - ok. But argue over it??

Wendy is being used as shorthand for "woman who behaves in a particular way" on some other threads. ie, to indicate that said woman is not very nice.

Some people are taking offence at the bogarting of a perfectly innocent name.

It's the use of the name Wendy to describe someone who is a friendship wrecker. OP doesn't like people using the name Wendy to describe someone like that, others saying 'it doesn't actually mean that all Wendys are like that', some saying 'I've got a good friend called Wendy and she is very nice' and others saying 'well I know a right bitch called Wendy', others saying 'it's from a book'. It's all a bit insane and probably fueled by Friday night alcohol.

And it's exactly the same arguments used when people raise a point about feminism. They are all ways to make the person who is upset shut up.

However, the op didn't help themselves by managing to imply that fat people are thieves and violent abusers. It is all a bit mad and I am both amused and concerned by it.