The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

One of the things that we did that greatly lowered the stress level is to only buy gifts for children. When I began floating this idea in the extended family a few years ago, it was received very well except for one or two who started calling me Scrooge.

Also I have always worked in jobs (non-profits/charities) where the Christmas season is very busy so I would be just overwhelmed with work and what seemed like a second full-time job of sorting Christmas for the family.

Re blouses: yy to a good cut making all the difference; also I think the position of buttons is more important than the shere number... Bizarrely, my size 34G bust fits/looks better in men's shirts than in a blouse - except that the sleeves than reach beyond my knuckles...

American Christian fundamentalism is truly scary. One of the reasons, much as I love the country, have lived there before and would live there again on a time limited contract, I would never want to permanently relocate there. IME, 'tis a country of great contrasts in so many ways and one of them is that some of the most interesting, self-reflecting, insightful people I've met have been American, and some of the most dense, parochial and narrow-minded ones too.

Christmas: I love Christmas . It starts 4 Sundays before Christmas Day. Not one minute earlier. We have a German stylee Advent Wreath which is more of a cultural thing rather than a declaration of great faith. We do Christmas Eve with the kids AND Christmas Day morning . I may do a turkey (and in fact have just baked my first ever, and possibly never to be repeated, Christmas cake I don't like them ). We'll have lots and lots of gingerbread and Speculatius and German Christmas baking.

DH sorts the tree, its decorations and ALL presents I'll wrap them all; I love wrapping.

So overall, not a bad mix. And, did I mention, I love Christmas?

Just had a look at that site Scone. Spat coffee over the keyboard when I looked up the Board of Directors. They are all men…..couldn't possibly guess why (sarcasm alert).

I don't mind Christmas - I like it more now because it's the time when the bulk of stuff at work is done. Ours is very uncomplicated. A few gifts (mostly either books or bottles of alcohol) for grown-ups, a few gifts (mostly books and lego) for a few kids. MIL cooks dinner. We turn up and eat and sit around feeling stuffed.

This year I might make something different. We will decorate with icing snowpersons.

I work part-time but have been working all hours recently and crave baking.

I tried to promote the idea of buying fewer gifts. My family are kids only or direct descendents. Dh's family decided we should cut back on how much money was spent, but we still get a gift for every single person!

The money isn't the problem - it's the buying a gift, wrapping it, mailing it etc. I could have wept. Then MIL decided she was offended by being told what to do, so she insists we should still spend more.

To make it worse, most of the family, mine & dh's put UK money into a UK bank account, then I use our US$ to buy stuff here for us - including me. But I STILL have to buy a present for people in the UK, wrap it, mail it etc. So I end up doing ALL the gifts from the entire feckin family to us, AND all the gifts from us to them.

I am the ONLY woman on both sides of the family who works ft, AND I have a SN kid, AND I do the majority of gifts for everyone else. Every time I suggest a different arrangement it gets twisted round, someone takes offense, and I end up with more work.

So now I just look at the money sent for my gifts, decided how much dh would like to spend on me, then buy myself something really nice. While I'm going out doing all the Christmas shopping, I make sure that I have some free time to myself, treat myself to lunch, and get a book or something to relax with for an hour or two.

But how stupid is it that at 44 I have to scheme to get some free time and a gift I want, cos every other person in my family just sees me as their workhorse?

kickass Wow, reading your posts makes me tired; I can only imagine how you feel. Have some , and .

Kickass that is a massive amount of work for you. Can't you do the putting money into a bank account for the rest of the family to buy their own gifts like they do for you? Or would people take offence at that?

I quite like our Christmas, but yes it's me that does all of the work behind it. Dp would happily ignore Christmas, before he met me he would turn up to his mum's on Christmas day with 3 cards (one for his mum, one for his sister and one for his nephew) each with some cash inside, then eat his mum's Christmas dinner and recieve presents (notice - other people put thought into buying him presents not just cash) then go home. I won't do that sort of Christmas for my kids though.

I buy all the presents for the dcs, my family and his family. Then I wrap them all. He does manage to get presents for me, which are pretty good and I appreciate them, but I wish he'd get some of the other presents too especially the ones for his family. We just have a quiet Christmas day at home with just the 4 of us. I cook the dinner but we don't go for the full turkey dinner seeing as none of us particularly like it, we have chicken and it's probably more basic than a lot of people do just for an ordinary roast.

Goodness, kickass, that sounds horrendous - for you, of course; but also not really the 'spirit of Christmas', is it?

I do across-2-countries-and-2-currencies gifting as well, but with far less expectation, stress and one-sidedness by the sounds of it.

I have to be honest I'd be very tempted to say "Dear family, I have spondered a herd of goats in place of pressies this year. I am sure are delighted to support those less fortunate than us at this time."
I am not saying I'd actually do that but I'd be tempted...
Being passive-aggressive at times can have its rewards.

My side of the family don't do birthdays/christmas - only an email/phonecall for these occasions are acceptable. We do only one big festival but even then it's only sending money. We are a very low maintenance family.

It is complete madness and it's one of those things that just gradually crept up and became so insidious that I can't change it now. If I try to push back it always go wrong and it ends up with me looking like a selfish bitch. The worst bit? Dh and I both have adult cousins who still live at home and get all their Christmas buying wrapping etc done for them even though they are totally capable themselves. I seem to have all the responsibility and none of the agency of other adult women.

This year they are ALL getting hampers from M&S.

It won't surprise you to know that there re massive issues with both sets if parents and we chose to live 4,000 miles away from them. I actually prefer this to trawling through the traffic jams in the UK and spending too much time with them. Once every 4 years I can cope with Christmas in the UK.

Jam, if DH's family were happy his whole life with no presents, you don't have to fix that.

Easier said than done, but liberating if you can manage it!

Bloody Christmas. I've had my sister on the phone saying I don't spend enough on DM's present (let's gloss over the complete lack of presents from DM for me and DH this year and the pointed buying presents for my DNs but nothing for my DC when she was visiting over half term) but on the other hand DH's sister says she can't be bothered to buy presents this year. I think my family would explode if I suggested that! But yes, despite us both working and me earning more (!!!) I do most of the work for Xmas. DH is shite at buying presents; in other words he will spend all day at the shops and come back with nothing. He thinks that when his family come to visit over Christmas we can offer them a few sandwiches and that will be fine (completely missing the point that 'a few sandwiches' for 11 people is more work than doing e.g. a casserole for the same number). He has written the cards and I think I need to give him more of these contained tasks. I am sitting her on MN while he clears up after tea though so it's not all bad!

I sort of know that Doctrine. But I feel guilty if we turn up with cash for his family and they hand over nicely chosen and wrapped presents. And I just can't bring myself to give small children cash, small children are all about the unwrapping and excitement of presents ime. I should just let him sort it though and if we end up giving cash then we end up giving cash and I'll let them know he was in charge of their presents.

Do it this year! I double dare you!

I think I will. It feels strangely exciting to even be thinking of leaving him to sort his own presents.

Jam Smile brightly and announce that it's all very exciting this year because DP is sorting the presents! How wonderful! Would that work?

I suppose it's a cultural thing. Where I come from cash is the thing to give.

LordCopper, I forgot to say - love the cake may need to steal the idea

Pacific and then all the egg yolks can go into the panettone.

When I get too busy at work I seriously crave baking.

Left the heating in by mistake so the 3 year old woke up at 4am too hot. Took about an hour to settle.

Then the 40 year old woke us both up cross about the mess in the kitchen at 6am.

Strong coffee please

Oh dear. My younger one was up for 45 minutes and then up again later in the night, so I'll join you for that strong coffee. I'm too old for this...

My family are quite low maintenance. We only buy for core family (not aunts, etc) and slightly wider children. Don't really buy for any friends. Plus people who know they are awkward (like my dad) are expected to find appropriately priced ideas, as are children, so that they stand a chance of getting something they like. We don't spend big money per present either. DH does his family, though I'll happily get involved in discussions and ideas, as will he for me.

Everyone is coming to mine for Christmas (well, probably a max of 4 guests, maybe more on Boxing Day). DH will take charge of Christmas dinner. I'll do Boxing Day. Christmas Eve is a toss up. DM will bring cake, mince pies, etc as she's fab at baking and has more time for that type of thing than I do (I do like to bake, but I'm not good at either icing or pastry!!).

Jam - If I were you I would probably compromise by doing the kids on your DH's side but holding a hard line on anyone over about 12. At least that way you don't feel sad at the sight of a 5 year old opening an envelope, but have made it clear you're not doing everything. Then either he gets the hang of it and you can pass the kids on to him next year, or they just get cash every year. I'd also make it known upfront that DH is doing his family this year.

Sorry to hear about bad nights and wakeful children. I am thrilled that my dcs slept well - second night, after what felt like an endless run of nights with an anguished cry of "Mummy!", and a pool of vomit.

(DP is more hands on than me on weekdays, as I have a long commute, and if they decide to get up and go for a wander looking for some company, they are as likely to look for him as for me. but when they are sick it is always "Mummy!" Why is this? I am not complaining. I am just confused. I am not even very nice. I mean yes, I am nice to them when they are sick, who wouldn't be, but if you look up "maternal" or "nurturing" in the dictionary, you don't form a mental image of me as you read the definition)

I am sad sad sad about that awful Lily Allen video. I mean it's not like she was my hero before or anything. But I am not very clued up about the real life world of feminist activism this days and I am really disappointed to discover that something that cluelessly racist can have a. made it out there and b. be defended. It makes me think that people of colour who say feminism is white-dominated and racist may be terribly right and it is sad sad sad. the obliviousness is awful, especially as it should be obvious to anyone by analogy if you have had your eyes opened to objectification of one sex - why can't you see objectification along racial lines?
Sad sad sad

People. What are you gonna do

yeah = definitely speak up & let it be known. It shouldn't really need to be said, should it, that you share the gift buying.

Both families are so convinced that it's my job. MIL once slapped my wrist cos I forgot HER wedding anniversary. I told her that it was DH's job to do his family. She didn't slap his wrist though! And it was actually a slap, not a figure of speech. See what I mean about the tears & tantrums if she doesn't get her way?

TheDoctrine, did the 40 yo tidy the kitchen?
Thought not...

kissangel, your MiL sounds deranged .

Lily Allan vid -

I wonder whether I could express my entire life in emoticons?
Sorry

I haven't seen the Lily Allen vid. Should I? I am already in constant rage ... I guess I probably soon, but later...

I am not even very nice. I mean yes, I am nice to them when they are sick, who wouldn't be, but if you look up "maternal" or "nurturing" in the dictionary, you don't form a mental image of me as you read the definition

That made me laugh. You've just described me. But you will find people who won't believe you. You are a woman, therefore you must naturally know about babies. Not only that you positively relish pooey nappies and vomit-covered bedsheets. Ah! You disagree! But why do you feel you have to fight against your nature? Don't deny it! Don't be so defensive. We know you are a highly competent professional, but come on, you must miss being all earth-mother and soft and loving and nurturing! Oh what have we done in this modern world to have alienated you from your nature!