The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

Yes I think you are right Penguins. I am more used to feminist groups where women understand that it is about analysis and don't get touchy.

Pacific - I actually looked it up in the dictionary (sad, me?) and the definition does allow for pride as feeling good about the achievements of loved ones and those close to you. Pride sort of covers 'pride on their behalf'. It doesn't mean you see it as your achievement. Which I guess covers my walking example too!

Ah, ok, I can go with that definition, thanks
Never thought of looking it up, doh!

That's interesting. I don't remember feeling pride when DS walked - but then he did so late that perhaps I just felt relieved, I don't know

I feel proud of him when he does something which is obviously very hard for him and he has done it well. Every time I hear him speak German I feel proud because we only moved here 2 months ago and he already knows an astonishing amount.

I don't actually remember the first time DD1 walked (or DD2 ). I just generally mean feeling proud of her determination. Of the relish with which she threw herself into it. The way she fell over again and again and acted like it had never happened and got up and tried again. The way she learned to walk and then about a day after she was steady on her feet she decided to learn to run. I feel pretty proud (in the definition I discussed with Pacific) whenever they throw themselves into anything.

Grennie it is sometimes very difficult to have a discussion on here which is about analysis without it getting bogged down or shouted down by people who can't or won't do class analysis. It seems worse than usual this week though.

Berstie, you are in Germany?? Whereabouts? - don't worry if you'd rather not say. How are you finding it from a feminist's point of view??

DS1 spent 3 months in Germany with my parents earlier this year - he had an absolute ball, was spoilt rotten by doting GPs and his German came on in leaps and bounds including lovely local accent and turn of phrase .
I was mainly proud of how he was prepared to go for his Big German Adventure on his own - the social side of it I thought was quite a challenge aged only 10.

I'm in Karlsruhe. I sometimes pop onto the German thread on here but I'm a bit crap at chat threads so I don't post very often.

I would have to say that I haven't come across much which has given me cause for an opinion one way or another. The friends I have here are mostly an expat group so they are all British/Australian/American mostly although there are some SA and others from various places in Europe. As well as this, we don't have German TV so I'm not getting massively exposed to the culture.

The things I have noticed:
More women tend to have shorter hair here and more men seem to have longer hair than in the UK in general. And not people who look particularly "alternative" like you would expect in the UK, but it just seems more normal to have more variety in hair styles which I think is interesting.

There seems to be a lot of girl/boy segregation of toys and such here. The pink kinder eggs for example which caused so much of a furore on MN are marked "für Mädchen" and they even have gendered Capri-Sun drinks! However, apart from this there seems to be much less pinkification of clothes etc and there is none of the "mini fashion model" kind of thing, which is nice. And actually thinking about it, there are so many toys which aren't gendered at all, so perhaps it's just that the things which are stick out so much.

There was one incident at DS' kindergarten where I stayed for half an hour for the first few days. They were making a chart with all the children's names on it and they had to put their fingerprint on in pink or blue to indicate boy/girl. One girl said no, I don't want pink. I like blue. And the teacher tutted and said "Are you a girl? Yes, well then you have pink." Just a small thing but I thought it was sad that she was told she wasn't allowed blue. But then generally in their play they don't steer the children to gendered roles, so I think it was just that particular activity, but I don't know.

I have heard a lot about attitudes to working etc but I haven't really experienced this at all. I have a job (part time) and it doesn't seem strange to anybody. Ditto I haven't experienced any negativity about DP and I not being married. If I ever have to mention that DS has a different father then it's almost always either dismissed as non-information (much as it would be in the UK) or one person said "Oh, that's your private business!"

Racism seems a lot more open and accepted here and I feel a bit uncomfortable seeing very physically disabled people begging on the streets, but I don't know if the latter is more because I've not lived in a city before.

There was an election recently, I think, and it struck me that there were far more female candidates than I would expect to see in the UK in ratio to the male ones. Plus the head of state is a woman and she seems to be taken seriously and not treated like a joke. But I am too young to remember Thatcher, so I can't really compare.

Oh, thanks for taking the time to post all that . I am from Mainz, have family in Bruchsal, and have lived in the UK for 20 years. I am old enough to remember Thatcher and she scared the bejeezus out of teenaged little me at the time!

I have the impression that children are 'allowed' to be children first and foremost, rather than 'boys' and 'girls', for longer in Germany. This impression may be coloured by the fact that I left Germany well before I every thought of having children so only ever see it from a visitor's perspective. The pinkification is gaining ground, but there is still more of a choice - although my SiL goes out her way to find pink stuff for my niece and is always delighted when she is here and can knock herself out in pink glittery things [head-desk]

I was much freer to have friends who were boys rather than boyfriends for much longer.
I detest it when DS4(3.7) plays with a little girl at nursery and I then get told "Oh, he's got a little girl friend". Ack.

I think much as more women work now than did when I was growing up, less women with children work in Germany than they do here. Maternity leave and pay are much more generous and your job can be kept open for up to 3 years. Leave can be shared between parents too which seem such a non-brainer to me tbh.

The recent General Election was v interesting. I don't agree with a lot of Angela Merkel's politics, but respect her. It is interesting that what she wears/how much make-up she's got on/what hair style she sports gets rarely any mention, not even in the popular press.

Oh, and the autumn sunshine and 22 degrees during out recent stay there in the October week, only to come back to sunny Scotland to 9 degrees and horizontal rain, both served to make me question the foolish impulse of my yoof to relocate !!

Gute Nacht!

Oh, racism, yes, and islamophobia - 'tis both baaaaad.

IMO this may be related to the fact that until very recently German society was much more homogenous than British society - no colonies since the end of the 19th century, no significant influx from other countries until 'guest workers' were invited to come and work for the 'Economic Miracle (Wirtschaftswunder)' from the late 50s. Most were from Italy and Spain, with Turkish workers following a bit later. They were v poorly integrated and were expected to return 'home' when no longer working.
There is huge discussion about wearing of headscarves and other traditional dress (even without head/face covering).

Ohh yes, the weather is beautiful! :) the sky in particular is always very dramatic - even with the wind and rain we've had the last week or so, the skies have been amazing.

One of the trains I get to work goes on to Bruchsal.

I have definitely seen that children are allowed to be children for longer - DS took his teddybear into kindergarten the other day and I was silently grateful that he felt able to do that without thinking it was "uncool". I'm sure if he was in Reception in the UK, as he would be if we were there, he wouldn't have felt he could do that.

I am quite enjoying the healthcare system too although it was a bit of a pain to get insurance at first due to not being married.

And in fact, yes - I did notice that Angela Merkel is not "traditionally pretty" in the way that, for example, Sarah Palin is. And yet it doesn't affect anything - as it shouldn't! - as it doesn't for men. I thought that was refreshing.

Yes, my Landlady (who is very friendly although I do find it quite disconcerting how close landlords/ladies tend to live to their tenants - they are right behind us!) mentioned that two men called something like Mohammed and Ahmed were moving in below us and they had had trouble finding other apartments "with those names" which I found quite shocking, really. DP has a colleague who is African-American and he has people openly staring at him some days when he gets on the tram.

I am not proud to be married. I think that would imply that I have achieved a status above that which I held before I was married IYSWIM.
But I am happy to be married most of the time
And I liked my wedding dress. I liked being dressed up for the occasion. I'm not sure how that sits with a feminist POV. But then i am probably already in the doghouse for my intermittent fasting and make-up wearing
I think I'll have a gingerbread coffee. Is there cover whilst LRD is away? Or shall we self-serve?

Think it's self service Amanda. If I ask nicely, will you do me one whilst you are at it?

Hope you are only joking about the dog house . We aren't the Borg.

Like the idea of children having a longer "childhood" I have heard it's like that is a few countries in continental Europe.

Another coffee coming up? How d'ya like it?

Yes I was joking

I'll have a gingerbread coffee. Not had that and it sounds good. Not too milky though - I like to taste the coffee. In fact, I am relishing the fact that, as I enter the second trimester, coffee no longer makes me nauseous as long as I don't eat it on an empty stomach. I missed my lovely coffee.

See it is so hard to tell if someone is joking in writing and first thing in the morning

Well, it was a bit of a TIC comment tbf.
I love coffee with gingerbread syrup. But I dislike latte. So I make An espresso, top up with hot water to a large mug size, add the syrup and then enough milk to make it, well, a bit milky, like an old fashioned white coffee.

I beginning to really understanding feminism, requires looking beyond your own immediate feelings, to look at deeper truths. It can feel frustrating at times how so many women find this hard to do.

Yes Grennie I see.

Yum, one of those please.

Grennie - I think that is hard to do. It gets easier if you phrase the question more academically/abstractly. If a question has 'you' in it people tend to latch on to the personal 'you' I have noticed rather than the collective. I know you shouldn't need to, but on general boards like this I have found it helps....

Could you be more specific Grennie, with some examples? Maybe I tousled help.