The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

Do your kids know you diet Amanda? I am nowhere near 8-10 (though healthy BMI range when not pregnant) but I try to simply say I am full or fancy eating X. In fact I am trying more and more to internalise making healthy choices and respecting my appetite generally. That is a tougher issue for me than make up. I have a lot of conflicting conditioning on food.

Pacific- you can't swim and keep your hair dry. You crick your neck . And you definitely cannot have fun in the pool with small kids when you shreik at every splash. That's what makes me

Oh Puddle . It sounds like a symptom then rather than being a 'women and make up' thing. I hope you have support.

some things are just so because I am a woman.
Yes, some things are and I have no great issue with the things that biologically are - on occasion I feel Nature must have been a man or a right old bitter hag .

I am a size 16 14 and I don't diet. I have phases when I eat more crap and I gain weight; if I stop the crap, I lose weight. I like chocolate junky snacks. Our meals are v healthy, but once the kids are in bed all bets are off - healthy double-standards .
DS2 thinks he is 'fat' - he is not, but he is not as skinny as the other 3 and he eats twice as much as them. So we talk about being active and how fuel intake has to be balanced with burning fuel up and he gets than. 'Tis quite hard what with the pillow case full of sweeties he brought home yesterday .

I have huge sympathy with people who struggle with their weight, but cannot stand a very specific kind of whining about it, sorry.

We have scales, but they are used to weight luggage (thank you, Ryanair).

Oh, Puddle, you sound wonderful - I agree your makeup issue seems a deeper issue than 'just' feminist IYKWIM. Thank goodness you are married to an enlightened man x.

I struggle with quite strong conditioning to finish meals, but also seeing certain foods as a 'treat'. It is hard to deal with ensuring that the girls don't fill up on puddings and ignore main courses without passing that on. I do worry that I am.

Oh gosh, food has been such a big issue in my life. My parents are completely messed up about it, so much so that I cba to even go there.

I have tried an endless amount of diets and exercises and everything you can think of, and I am just done with it now. I used to hear about a new diet and get all excited, thinking that this time I would get to be thin. I really think that there is so much bad advice out there about food and body image but people just absorb it all. Now I just get on with life and enjoy what I can while accepting that I am what I am.

I do have a couple of regrets - 1. clothes that I really loved but can't fit into any more, but more importantly, 2. I wish I could have realized just how fucking gorgeous I was when younger and had more fun instead of stressing about my stomach looking big. Honestly, I should go back to my younger self and yell, 'Wear that skirt higher, that top lower, or whatever you want. You are young and beautiful and you should be dyeing your hair bright pink and strutting your stuff. Get out there and party".

Food has been a huge issue in my life too. I am currently overweight (down from obese a few months ago) and attend slimming world. I do worry that my dds are seeing me going to SW and obsess a bit about my weight but I'm trying to make sure it's seen as about my health rather than about my looks if that makes sense. I eat normal, healthy food, have large portions and I try very hard not to talk about dieting in front of them. I have never tried any way out or faddy diets though, it's always been healthy eating either on it's own or through attending SW groups.

I actually was pretty confident about my appearance when I was younger, before dd1 I wore fairly revealing stuff when i wanted to. I'm attempting to let dd1 have that same confidence, even when I am less than enthused about her choices.

"do your kids know you diet?"
Well ds is just 3. He notices that some days idon't eat (I do 5:2). But i don't imagine he appreciates why.
I must try to be careful about how I word things in relation to my size/ shape/ appearance.

Eating "healthily" is virtually impossible IMHO. There is food everywhere.
I have a tendency to comfort eat. Dieting counterbalances that.

I think food is an societal issue (too much of it too readily available too cheaply - compare food prices in the 1950/60s as percentage of household income and it was hugely more expensive^) and not just bound to gender, but the whole body image thing seems to be more pernicious to girls/women.
Although that too is changing: I don't know whether it is due to that horrible sleb culture or too much reality TV (Towie, anyonea?), but more and more boys/young men fret about how they look and eating disorders are rising in men. AND of course they are often slower in seeking help or admitting a problem. Gah!!

IMVHO I think 'naturally' slim people are those who don't think much about food: they eat when hungry, stop when no longer hungry, don't eat when not hungry, so are quite capable of saying 'no, thanks' when food/drink is foisted on them in social situations. My brother is like that and yes, has always been slim. He is rather dysfunctional in many other respects, not not with food. Dontcha hate him !

I am v guilty of giving a bread stick to the tantrumming child, in my mind as 'distraction', but I am probably teaching them to comfort eat .

Pacific - Yes, I struggle with the 'breadstick distraction' issue too. Also with ending up saying "Well you must eat two potatoes if you want pudding", because my older one in particular would happily ignore the main course, eat pudding, be hungry earlier and then want snacks.

Puddle- I don't want to criticise anyone's food choices, but I too feel that the 5:2 is a sort of sanctioned disordered eating. I thought about it (permanently want to lose 5kg when not pregnant). But I decided that the message it sent to the children was too confusing and inconsistent. I also felt it was too close to disordered eating I struggled with in my late teens and early 20s (not an eating disorder, but bingeing, fasting, etc from time to time).

I really want to get to the point where I can allow the mass of food in our society to 'wash over me', only eating when I want to. I really struggle with things like cakes, chocolate, which I will eat if offered even if I don't want them. That is ridiculous. But my brain tells me it is a 'treat' that I should take when it is on offer. Even if I don't particularly like that item. It's ridiculous and I think 5:2 would in many ways just sanction that behaviour.

Intermittent fasting has some clear metabolic advantages, harking back to a time when human were hunters and gathered and will have had times of plenty interspersed by longer periods of time of not eating. So from that point of view it makes sense (more than some other diets IMO).
It just does not help the psychological aspect of over/under/disordered eating .

We make a point of not insisting that every plate has to be emptied, but everything has to be tried at least once. And portion size should be such that there is a chance that they can finish it all. Or have seconds if they want more.
For the record: I have 3 v good eaters and DS4 who eats only beige .

IMO avoiding obvious 'junk' and eating as much unprocessed food as possible is as much of a 'diet' I want to be sticking to .

I do agree about the research Pacific. I found that really interesting (was it Panorama? can't remember). I also read an article a while back (which I can't now find) suggesting that 5:2 seemed to be more successful for men than women. No idea if there is any truth in that, but given the bias towards women in disordered eating, it would make sense if you reap more benefit if the eating pattern 5:2 requires isn't feeding into a disordered eating pattern you already possess. I agree that many women have psychological issues with their eating that 5:2 would feed.

Joyful - well now you do :) I've never been on a diet although sometimes my eating is a bit disordered but it's more to do with laziness and not noticing that I'm hungry than anything psychological I think.

I have always been bordering on underweight naturally though so dieting would be dangerous for me. My mum never diets either. I never saw or heard her comment on her weight or appearance at home and I think that made the biggest difference to me. It just doesn't enter my radar, I don't have the "good/bad" foods thing either. Food is just food. I'm really grateful to her for it but she didn't do it consciously, it's just the way she feels about food.

I like 5:2 because it's straightforward. It's not for everyone of course.
I am guilty of stealth eating while preparing food for the DCs. And tiredness makes me snack. I tend to have biscuits in the house as ds and dh like them.
I prefer to just have a couple of food- free days rather than trying to calorie count or adapt every meal to my requirements.
Obviously it would b better for me to just eat when hungry as Pacific was saying. But i've found the pressures of motherhood have led me to comfort eat more than i used to.

I agree about food just being food. We have a pretty liberal approach to meals i think.

We've always had 3 main meals a day + morning snack + afternoon tea + late night supper when we were growing up. I still do that, but with smaller portions, and missing out on the in-between snacks if I'm not hungry.

Snacking is the enemy lordcooper IMO.

I eat when hungry and stop when full - that's my diet. So snack when necessary, not as hobby or habit. Does take a bit of presence of mind to do that, I find. And I try to snack on healthier things. And drink more water...

"To me most diets (especially the 5:2 one) are just a sanctioned form of disordered eating. And I struggle with disordered eating as it is, so exchanging one sort for another seems counter-productive."

I'm the same, I just know where the 5:2 diet would end for me.