Burlesque dancing...?

[whatdoesittake48]

In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I have signed up to do one of these courses. But I am already torn about what this means as a feminist.

I like the idea of doing something out of my comfort zone and having fun while doing it. But I am anti-porn, see striptease as demeaning for women and do not think that women should be expected to perform for men....

Unless it is their husband/partner and they absolutely are keen themselves.

My husband is very keen for me to give this a go - but in no way did he push the idea. I searched it out. What does this say about my principles and am I over thinking this.

I hate all this empowerment bullshit - stripping for men is not about empowerment. But is it different when it is for the man you love. Isn't that just carrying on the image that men love to see women doing this kind of thing. Do the men think their wives look powerful and sexy or do they think she is doing something for me because I am the "special" one and more important.

Aaargh! I really want to do this because I think it will be a great female bonding thing - but not sure if I want to bring it home to my husband. I will feel deeply uncomfortable with the idea of putting on a show...

Why does it have to be about empowerment?
I'm empowered in many areas of my life, can't I just have a bit of a dance of the weekend?

Flora fox. Considering the next line was "if you don't, don't." I hardly think your in a position to suggest I read properly.

I am so beyond sick of people who call themselves feminists refusing to accept that other women (who may or may not identify as feminists) may genuinely enjoy sexual practises that they do not.
Its fucking ludicrous, any woman who wants to wear sexy clothes, engage in sexual dancing or shock horror wants to be filmed having sex must be damaged by society to feel that way.

No ifs, no buts, no diversity.

Fwiw, no activity I engage in is for the titillation of men. I LOVE burlesque, strip teases, power play, sexy tight revealing clothes, killer heels, not too fussed about make up oddly enough but its never about men, I'm gay.

Generally I don't discuss this with the other women I know who call themselves feminists as it turns into a frustrated argument where they stick unswervingly to the argument that I am damaged by society

If just one if you can come away from this with the seed planted in your mind that not all women who enjoy some of these practises (that are usually massively commercialised and turned into something else completely) are damaged and should be ashamed of how they feel then this outpouring will have been worth it.

"The difference as I see it is that public speaking, telling jokes, dancing etc. are judgements based on a skill or a talent."

And a lot (even if not all) of Burlesque acts use skills and talent. Whether it's dancing, choreography, comedy, singing, costume design, even prop/set design.

Hmm.

The power comes from knowing you have the audience's attention and being able to take them with you. So...an impromptu joke in a public speech makes the audience more likely to take in your next point. A personal story about why you wrote the song that way before you play it makes the audience more connected.

In the words of Susan Sarandon, you own the room. And that's the sense of power.

Flora, I think there is more skill to twirling one's boobs than may be commonly suspected. But even this is beside the point. Why is twirling boobs different from twirling legs? And, as I said before, any dancer is judged on their body. The body is part of the dance. Knowing how to use it and present it is integral to the dance.

As I said before, I really do generally agree that much of burlesque is in some degree degrading for women. But I have seen performances which for me were not, including one posted on this thread. And I am having real difficulty relating to the position which is basically "some practice that degraded women in the past and now, no matter how much it is changed and re-conceptualised by both practitioners and observers, it will always be degrading". This position effectively denies the performers and the audience subjectivities that, while definitely not "free", may be informed by notions different from ours.

What is missing for me in this thread (and unfortunately I do not have expertise here) is the discussion of the politics of the naked female body. What makes it so special? Can it ever be used as a symbolic and communicative device as the clothed body? Can it communicate something of its own that is not a "degraded woman"?

I am not interested in the "look I've got tits!" dance. I am not even interested in empowerment. Why does everything have to be bloody empowering? But I am interested in the body and its movement and what it can communicate.

And I feel Herrena also has a point. Why is being publicly sexual always degrading to women?

Thanks for your second and third paragraphs, Autumn, I wanted to express that earlier but couldn't get it down.

WhentheRed, what do you mean by "support"? Applause from the sisterhood or just membership in the sisterhood? It's all a bit "walk of shame", to be honest.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

Comments like that are the reason my post was so ragey unlike autumn eloquent post.

Who the actual fuck are you to decide who "the sisterhood" can give support to.
This makes me angry on do many levels that I struggle to express myself and worse... It's not just you who has such abhorrent opinions.

I repeat my first line. It's bullshit like that that's makes feminist a dirty word.

Do you think feminism is a dirty word Herrena?
I don't think it is, despite knowing that there are feminists out there who I disagree with.

Certainly there are plenty of feminists who do not take a pro-censorship, cover-yourself-up position.

As to the 'some people dislike performing and performers' post I made earlier, I wasn't referring only to feminists. Some people (including a percentage of men, women, transpeople of any and every political/philosophical viewpoint) seem to operate from a base level along the lines of:anything that is enjoyable is suspect. Anything that some people enjoy and others dislike is wrong. We are not here to have fun, we are here to work and strive and keep our minds on higher things.

What 2tired just said

I also don't subscribe to the ideology that "if women are doing/saying it, it (whatever it may be) is inherently feminist"

no, it ain't

No I do not think it needs to be a dirty word. If it was relevant I would refer to myself as a feminist.

However less than 24% of uk women and less than 19% of US women will. Why is that?

I am a feminist, I have provided sisterly support in a thousand million ways.

If some up themselves knobends want to have a description of feminist that has no room for me then fine.

Fortunately I am not the type of person who feels obliged to conform to fit in their clique.
It does make me bloody mad though. It gives fruit to the idea that we are all raging harpies.

We are our own worst enemy. Time and again women have ripped 'the sisterhood' apart by refusing to accept that their is more than one way of thinking. In the sixties it was abortion, today it is porn.

It make me sad too. I am happy to accept that some people are not only left cold but actively repulsed by a woman dolled up to the nines with killer heels and a basque, who is strutting her stuff and feeling great but it gives me the utter rage when these people declare it unfeminist and withdraw support of 'the sisterhood' like it was ever theirs to give.

What do you suggest then, HH

All women should agree with all women all of the time or else they are Knobends and their own worst enemy ? That seems to be what you are saying.

Doctrine I can see that on a "feels good" level but I can't square that with any feminist sense of empowerment.

I also don't think we can take activities like stripping and magically strip them of their power and their effect on the position of women as a class in society just because we enjoy them or like them.

"Why is being publicly sexual always degrading to women?" Because patriarchal society treats a woman's body as either the private property of a single man or the public property of all men. Being exposed in public is degrading to the woman who is the property of one man (the madonna) because she must keep herself for her man or it is a demonstration being the public property of all men (the stripper or whore). These issues are not without consequence to women as a class and I don't believe we can individually choose our way out of them, however much we wish we could.

The existence of burlesque and its support from some feminists also supports stripping generally. Men who want to view women as the sex class or objectify women (whether its by going to strippers or otherwise) will say, quite rightly, that there's no difference between women doing burlesque and women stripping in lap dancing clubs. They are entitled to continue their consumption and there is no harm in the increasing pornification of society and culture generally cos, after all, feminists do it too. We still live in a patriarchal culture and I don't see that trying to co-opt the means of oppression will work if we want to change that.

Sure every one should just agree with me, that's exactly what I said

No I think that's its perfectly acceptable for someone to be anti porn (because 95% of porn is horrific) however to me it is not acceptable for someone who is anti porn to say to another woman who would consider herself a feminist but enjoys the 2% of porn (that is not horrific and is to her taste)you can't be a feminist because feminists are anti porn.

Yes I have heard this, no not just once.

I repeat I'm perfectly happy to accept that burlesque doesn't do it for you, that you have been put off it by the amount of it that is derogatory to women. I'm not prepared to accept someone saying burlesque is not compatible with feminism.

I generally don't watch movies, they almost always offend my feminist sensibilities. It does not follow that anything recorded as a film is unfeminist or that anyone who watches or enjoys films should not call themselves a feminist.

I am not trying to write a definition of feminism that leaves anyone out but I am having a fucking temper tantrum because I am beyond sick of people trying to do that to others (including me)

HH it sounds like you are refusing to accept that some women do not think burlesque, porn etc. are good for feminism or women generally. Anyone who says that is not only a raging harpy and giving feminism a bad name according to you, they're also to blame for tearing apart feminism cos you don't agree.

No-one said they were "repulsed by a woman dolled up to the nines with killer heels and a basque".

Flora, I don't think it's empowering, in a feminist sense or any other. Sarah Millican and Jimmy Carr may both feel that sense of power but I don't think either is empowered.

I do see the point about the context of stripping. What I was trying to get at with the respectfulness of the audience was whether the audience saw it as a performance (like dance).

Belly dancing and can can dancing, say, are somewhere in the spectrum between ballet and stripping. Is burlesque more stripping than dance or more dance than stripping?

Now I think that a percentage, if not the majority, of female burlesque performers (and there are quite a lot of male ones, as well) perform burlesque partly because of this idea that a woman's naked body belongs either to her male owner or any man who happens to see it. For some women, a performance which involves taking your clothes off is a deliberate challenge to this mindset and a statement that her body belongs to her and she can show it or conceal it as she sees fit.

Also: whether you cover your body or display it, there's an extent to which you 'can't win' - either with the patriarchy or with feminism. If a woman were to post that she finds wearing the niquab and jilbab empowering as, in her opinion, it stops men gazing at her, the same criticisms would surely apply: that other women are obliged to wear these things and oppressed by having to do so, and that she must be deluded or wrong to find them empoweriing.

This women as a class issue had me laughing, seems that some people feel that they can define that class and what is right and wrong for that class based on their opinion. Dancing of any sort is inherently sexual and Judith Hanna has written some wonderful things about the power of dance. But is seems that even though there are a percentage of women who enjoy dance, burlesque and striptease these can't be feminists as they are not supporting women as a class. And then people complain that not enough women identify as feminists. Any surprise some of us feel feminist and are involved in what most people would see as feminist ideals but feel alienated? I am involved in trying to stop FGM in africa and supporting women in the third world to earn more of a family supporting wage through fair trade. But doesn't matter as my beliefs on the dance thing is wrong in some people's opinions so I am not a feminist.