Burlesque dancing...?

[whatdoesittake48]

In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I have signed up to do one of these courses. But I am already torn about what this means as a feminist.

I like the idea of doing something out of my comfort zone and having fun while doing it. But I am anti-porn, see striptease as demeaning for women and do not think that women should be expected to perform for men....

Unless it is their husband/partner and they absolutely are keen themselves.

My husband is very keen for me to give this a go - but in no way did he push the idea. I searched it out. What does this say about my principles and am I over thinking this.

I hate all this empowerment bullshit - stripping for men is not about empowerment. But is it different when it is for the man you love. Isn't that just carrying on the image that men love to see women doing this kind of thing. Do the men think their wives look powerful and sexy or do they think she is doing something for me because I am the "special" one and more important.

Aaargh! I really want to do this because I think it will be a great female bonding thing - but not sure if I want to bring it home to my husband. I will feel deeply uncomfortable with the idea of putting on a show...

[MrsClown]

I must admit I didnt know alot about Burlesque so decided to watch a performance at my local tattoo festival (on the computer - thank God I didnt actually go!). The woman concerned stripped down to a g string. I dont see the difference with any other kind of stripping. I am now positive it is exactly the same but women have been pursuaded it is more empowering - why I dont get it. There were still men with their tongues hanging out sat around the stage. It amazes me how women can been pursuaded to do anything!

[Grennie]

I agree MrsClown.

Sausage - It does not mean you are not a feminist. Feminists think different things. But I disagree with you that burlesque and striptease are meaningless. Women are treated and viewed as the sex class. Striptease and burlesque are just another way that is reinforced.

[HerrenaHarridan]

Yes that's what I said, right after "I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone to be anti porn"

I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to hold any view that they have actually thought about. I just don't think it's acceptable for them to refuse to accept that other people can hold different opinions and still be a feminist.

"I don't believe we can individually choose our way out of this, however much we might want to"

This is exactly what I am talking about.

[HerrenaHarridan]

I really relate to SGBs point about either extreme.
Don't you see the irony in telling women how it is acceptably feminist to behave, think and dress

I think that in my anger I have not been expressing myself very well.

I absolutely support your right to be anti-porn, anti stripping and anti burlesque.
I support your right to wear clothes that make you feel sexy or clothes that cover you up.
I wholeheartedly support your right to shave or not shave, to wear make up or not or to wear killer heels or combat boots.
You lose my support at the point that you decide that to do, think or feel the opposite of what you think is unfeminist/not supported by the sisterhood/ not comparable with feminism

[Grennie]

Any woman can behave, think, dress as she wants. Totally up to her.

But feminism is about analysing how patriarchy affects us all. And that includes wearing make up, high heels, stripping and porn.

I don't care if a feminist wears make up for example. I do care how the whole make up industry makes women feel negatively about themselves.

[ScaryFucker]

Your argument is too simplistic and too individualist, IMO, HH

Listen to what grennie is saying

[HerrenaHarridan]

Too individualist fuck me sideways, heaven forbid any woman dare be an individual as opposed to a conforming member of the feminist collective?!?

IMO you need to think very carefully about the exclusionist attitude that you express.

[curlew]

"You lose my support at the point that you decide that to do, think or feel the opposite of what you think is unfeminist/not supported by the sisterhood/ not comparable with feminism"

The really important thing to remember is that just because a woman makes a choice doesn't make it a feminist choice. Women are just as capable of being anti feminist as men are.

Women are, obviously, perfectly at liberty to make anti feminist choices. But they can't then call themselves feminists.

[Grennie]

Harridan - Feminism is a political philosophy. If you don't agree with it, fine. But it is pretty rude to come on here and tell us that all feminists are doing it wrong.

[SolidGoldBrass]

But, Grennie, what about the flip side - the patriarchal argument that women must be 'modest' and 'decent': keep themselves covered up, express no interest in sex and not seek to draw attention to themselves? I don't think a discussion of nudity/display of the body can exclude a discussion of the choice or obligation to hide the body and how that affects women.

The majority of human beings (Not all, of course; some have other concerns) will, from time to time, want sexual attention from others. You can be a brain surgeon or tennis champion most of the time but now and again you might like to dress up and show off in a sexual context. That doesn't make you any less of a medic or an athlete. The whole much-derided concept of 'choice' feminism has a certain amount to do with the idea that women being told to avoid certain things on the grounds that it gives The Patriarchy a bad impression of all women can sound like yet another obligation on women to put their own needs, wishes and feelings at the bottom of the list and to be unselfish (like some of the bucketheads suggesting that Miley Cyrus should have no hesitation about 'sacrificing her career' for the sake of All The Other Women).

[SinisterSal]

I really don't see that Woman be Modest trope any more. The pressure is all the other side, be overtly sexual, be a Cool Girl, be Up For It etc etc. That has changed imo.

Perhaps one time burlesque etc was about reclaiming one own's sexuality. Now I think the rebellious thing to do would be proudly and overtly asexual.

Also, critiquing a practice on a thread that asks for views, is not kicking people out of the sisterhood, ffs. There is more to feminism than Do What Thou Wilt, we're not bloody satanists (seeing as how it's nearly halloween)

[SolidGoldBrass]

SinisterSal: Really? Current debates about the niquab/jilbab/burqua completely passed you by?

Buffy: I know anecdote isn't data but ISTR that at least one male burlesque artist is a barrister when he's not leaping around with his willy out. However, some men do wear revealing clothes/pose/dance/strut their stuff when they want to attract lustful attention from women.

[SinisterSal]

Niqab wearing isn't mainstream. That is rather the point.

[FloraFox]

I don't think patriarchy did tell all women to cover up and be modest. The "girl you marry", yes but not the "girl you don't". Often this was not an individual choice to be the "girl you don't" but could result from some transgression eg having sex before marriage or worse, having a baby. To the point where a woman might end up in prostitution. I read that one in three women in London in Victorian times (the height of public modesty) was in prostitution.

Stripping or burlesque doesn't subvert patriarchal roles, it just changes the source of supply of the publicly available sex class from poverty or desperation to empowerfulised free choice wielding (often middle class, in the case of burlesque) women. That might feel like a personal act of subversion but it doesn't subvert patriarchy. Someone said on another thread (Whenthered?) that a male character said on a recent film that men won the war of the sexes when women started pole dancing for fitness.

[perplexedpirate]

To clarify: I didn't invoke the 'spirit of the sisterhood' (kicks pentangle under the sofa).
I said it wasn't in the 'spirit of the sisterhood' to call a group of women childish and offensive names because they like dancing dressed in peculiar outfits.
I was referring to the posters who we're saying burlesque dancers were fat, goth, nerdy etc.
Fortunately, the rest of this discussion has been mostly well-reasoned and interesting.
I'll still dance though. And be a feminist.

For the sake of argument, would an actress playing a burlesque dancer still be regarded as making an unfeminist choice?

[perplexedpirate]

Female actor I mean!!

[coffeespoons]

When burlesque was first revived around near me a good few years back now it was bloody awesome. I went to see it, was never brave enough to do it. It was mostly women, feminist women too, all body types/sizes, creative storylines etc, non-leery but supportive audience of mostly women.

At some point it became a bit more mainstream. I stopped going because it was suddenly weird and objectifying and full of leery men and no creative storylines and women I knew didn't want to be part of it any more.

It's even more mainstream now.

Burlesque can be empowering, but I'd say a lot depends on whether it has the right kind of atmosphere and the right kind of audience. When it was just a group of us radicals in a back room it sure was.

[coffeespoons]

And all you lot describing burlesque as 'stripping for fat birds' should take a look at yourselves! How is having a go at women for being fat feminism?

[Grennie]

Not having a go at woman for being fat at all. But that seems to be the only "subversive" thing about burlesque i.e. that women are of different shapes, sizes, wearing glasses, etc.

And when you say empowering, what power are the performers getting from performing?

[TheDoctrineOfSpike]

Who has described it as that on this thread, coffeespoons?