Burlesque dancing...?

[whatdoesittake48]

In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I have signed up to do one of these courses. But I am already torn about what this means as a feminist.

I like the idea of doing something out of my comfort zone and having fun while doing it. But I am anti-porn, see striptease as demeaning for women and do not think that women should be expected to perform for men....

Unless it is their husband/partner and they absolutely are keen themselves.

My husband is very keen for me to give this a go - but in no way did he push the idea. I searched it out. What does this say about my principles and am I over thinking this.

I hate all this empowerment bullshit - stripping for men is not about empowerment. But is it different when it is for the man you love. Isn't that just carrying on the image that men love to see women doing this kind of thing. Do the men think their wives look powerful and sexy or do they think she is doing something for me because I am the "special" one and more important.

Aaargh! I really want to do this because I think it will be a great female bonding thing - but not sure if I want to bring it home to my husband. I will feel deeply uncomfortable with the idea of putting on a show...

[MurderOfBanshees]

"And seeming to want you sexually."

IME it usually doesn't seem that way.

[IHaveA]

I think its tacky although not half as bad as pole dancing classes.

Belly dancing is ok but BADMINTON rules!

[IHaveA]

Oops, I should add that although I find it tacky I don't care if people choose to do it. I guess its a bit like fake tan and fake eyelashes - they are just not my scene but I don't think anything of people who want to have them.

[perplexedpirate]

Oh dear, I've done pole dancing too, though not publicly.
I should point out that I am staunchly feminist, and firstly identified as such at a very early age.
I like dancing. I like the way I look in feathers and fishnets and corsetry. I like it when we master a tricky bit of choreography. I like the acting and the music and the friends I've made through it.
I don't like it when people use phrases like 'fat', 'nerdy' and 'goth' to describe a group of women who share a hobby.
I think that's childish, offensive, and not really in spirit of 'the sisterhood'.

[redhotannie]

Here's something to consider:

To me, burlesque is very creative striptease - sometimes sexy, sometimes funny, but always very theatrical.

But you don't have to be SEXY in burlesque, and if you are sexy, it's on your own terms. Burlesque doesn't even have to include strip tease (although it mostly does).

When we talk about "Strippers," we talk about a sexuality that address what someone else finds sexy - it's a service/transaction - you are there to address the sexual needs of others. As women, we are inundated with information about how to do things that other people find sexy. It's very easy to make a list of things that make our partners "tick," no?

But, burlesque - to me, at least - is about what makes ME feel sexy - and that's a whole 'nother ball game. We're NEVER taught about that, and I think it's much more complex for women, because if you are feminist, you have a whole of extra considerations (for example, not wanting to play into the "male gaze").

What makes me feel sexy? Taking fresh, warm, clean sheets out of the dryer and holding one against my skin (no hair/no makeup) FEELS sexy to me. I could have my hair/makeup done, my stockings on, be sitting at a bar with martini - no one else around - and feel like "I OWN THIS WORLD!" - and that FEELS sexy to me.

But yes, it's body positive, and that means you'll find people on stage you don't feel are sexy. Yes, it varies in quality, so sometimes it might seem like amateur-hour. And yes, sometimes it even veers into non-feminist/male-gaze oriented shows where everyone is decidely "sexy" by what I think should be deemed "male standards."

Burlesque is a wide open playing field, dominated by women, and your definition of what burlesque is can vary greatly depending on what you want it to be. However, in my opinion, the perks of being involved in a community of like-minded women who are striving to create a bigger definition of "sexy" that includes what WE find sexy is worth the fragments of sloppiness/mis-steps that come with us trying to find our feminist voice and own a bigger piece of our environment.

I love this thread, and thank you so much for sharing your feelings and ideas! Very brave! :)

[whatdoesittake48]

Redhot - what a great post. Thank you.

[FloraFox]

If burlesque is all about discovering what makes YOU feel sexy, why does it take the form of what is simply more old-fashioned / retro stripping, which is very much for the male gaze?

What does warm clean sheets have to do with burlesque?

"I could have my hair/makeup done, my stockings on, be sitting at a bar with martini - no one else around - and feel like "I OWN THIS WORLD!" - and that FEELS sexy to me."

Why does that make you feel like you OWN THIS WORLD? Especially since you don't and no amount of sitting in a bar with stockings on will lead to this.

Sorry, I just don't see how presenting your body to be judged by others, whether men or women, (cf. the nudity at the Michigan Women's Festival) and emulating a performance that was most decidedly designed for the male gaze is trying to find a feminist voice.

[HerrenaHarridan]

It's people spouting off like this that makes feminist a dirty word.

I find it so damn frustrating. Women repressing other women in the name of feminism.

Go if you want to op. if you enjoy it keep going if you don't leave immediately.

If you think you will enjoy performing it for you husband and he will enjoy to watch them it is between two consenting adults is no no bugger else's business.

If the thought of performing it for you partner leaves you cold or weirded out, don't.

Please don't feel like you can't go because feminists will be disappointed in you.

[2tired4internets]

OP wanted to discuss this from a feminist point of view though

[AutumnMadness]

I definitely sympathise with the critical view of the performance that was originally designed "for the male gaze" and as a device that would sexually objectify women as a class. At the same time, I am still not finding the answers to the question about whether all female public nakedness is inherently oppressive. What exactly is the qualitative difference between burlesque and Michigan Women's Festival? There were no leering men at the Michigan Women's Festival? What if there were? I bet there were a few. Does their sexism make the nudity oppressive to women? Is it the attitude of the audience that decides what is oppressive and what is not?

Also, as a dancer, I can say that if anybody thinks that there is dance where your body is not judged by others, naked or not, they are kidding themselves. Dance (and acting) is a bodily experience. You are there, on the stage, in front of the camera, in your body. It's not your book, not your painting, not your sculpture or even your voice. It's your body. And people are looking at it. Does it make all bodily performance oppressive?

Belly dance seems to be regarded on this thread as acceptable from a feminist perspective. Why is that? Is it really different from burlesque in its origin? Belly dance, in the countries of origin (Egypt, Turkey, etc) goes hand in hand with prostitution. The story about belly dance being done "by the women and for the women" is largely fairy tale. It's done by near-naked women for the men (reference - Egyptian films from the 40s and 50s). Does this make today's many strands of belly dance (e.g. tribal fusion) all oppressive to women? Why cannot the same analysis be applied to burlesque, especially considering that it also seems to have many strands varying in "strippiness". Is burlesque more oppressive than belly dance because it includes naked tits as opposed to largely naked ones? Where do we draw the line?

[FloraFox]

"if you think you will enjoy performing it for you husband and he will enjoy to watch"

I'm not surprised you're damn frustrated if you don't read the OP but just spout off based on your own assumptions.

[2tired4internets]

AtumnMadness, my oriental dance teacher told me that the origin of belly dance is traditional folk dances and that it became what it is today because of orientalism and the idea of sexy harem girls, and the concept of sexy bellydancing was then brought back to the Middle East.

[FloraFox]

Autumn Michigan Women's Festival is a women-only event, there are no men at all so no male gaze.

FWIW, I don't think there is much difference between burlesque and belly dancing. However, since belly dancing has no cultural history in the UK, the connections with prostitution are not ingrained here. Belly dancing was the fashionable sexy-empowerfulising dance before burlesque took off and that raises its own concerns about appropriating women's experiences from other cultures for sexy-fun. What's next? Geishas?

I don't think it's that hard to draw the line. If the performance is or originates from (in recent memory, culturally) a highly gendered experience where women perform for the male gaze, it's likely to be problematic from a feminist perspective.

[Grennie]

I think with Michigan Women's Festival it is a mixture of it being women only, and that the type of women attracted to the festival are not the kind to judge. Most women wear clothes. But there were very fat older women naked, and young slim women naked. And there was no obvious judgements being made.

It would have felt very different if there were any men there I suspect.

[2tired4internets]

I don't think modern belly dancing is the exact same things as burlesque since it doesn't involve stripping. But I've heard here on this thread that burlesque doesn't always involve stripping either. Now that we've seen what the normal stripper version looks like, it would be very interesting to see a good example of satirical/subversive/clothed burlesque, if someone would like to share a clip!

[MurderOfBanshees]

"I think with Michigan Women's Festival it is a mixture of it being women only, and that the type of women attracted to the festival are not the kind to judge. [...] And there was no obvious judgements being made."

This is how the vast majority of Burlesque events that I've been to have been.

2tired I will see what I can find, I know some of my favourite performers don't have whole clips online though - preferring the audience to get a surprise. Am bit busy for the next couple of hours, but will try and do it later tonight.

[Grennie]

No women are the festival are not "performing". It is totally different.

[SolidGoldBrass]

I think it's also worth considering the whole concept of performing for an audience. That's something that a lot of people would really hate to do - and I don't mean exclusively performances with a sexual element. Lots of people dislike (for example) karaoke ie they might go along to a karaoke night and applaud their mates but would bolt at the suggestion they take the mic themselves. Being asked to speak in public is, apparently, something that a lot of people are terrified of. Yet other people love performing and/or are very keen to be famous. This isn't inherently bad.

And some people seem to have a deep level of resentment at the idea of anyone performing for an audience - the 'What makes you think you're so special' mindset: again, people who have grown up hearing that might find burlesque in particular to be empowering in that it makes them feel good to shatter a taboo.

[FloraFox]

SGB I'm not sure if you are implying that feminists are these "some people" who resent the idea of anyone performing for an audience. In case you are, I'd like to be clear that I don't resent the idea of performance, this is about performance of female sexuality tailored to the male gaze.

If empowerment comes from shattering a taboo, what is the power element and what is the taboo?

If it is just the concept of going against a "what makes you think you are so special?" mindset, why does presenting your body in public in a manner associated with male judgement and male gaze smash this? Especially if, as others have suggested, burlesque is body positive i.e. you don't have to be "so special"? It would seem to me that it only promotes the sense of self of the person performing if they are showing themselves that, despite years of feeling bad about themselves for not meeting the standards expected in patriarchal society, it turns out that they do meet those standards after all. A bit like a Hollywood movie of underdog coming up good.

[curlew]

SGB-forgive me if I'm wrong- but do you have a financial interest in this area?

[MurderOfBanshees]

Grennie I meant in terms of the atmosphere being non-judgemental

[TheDoctrineOfSpike]

Flora, I'm not sure that's right.

If you have confidence in something (public speaking, telling jokes, dancing, whatever), then showing off that skill can be exhilarating.

I don't think it necessarily starts from seeking validation.

[FloraFox]

spike I agree with that. I'm not against performance nor the thrill of performing. The difference as I see it is that public speaking, telling jokes, dancing etc. are judgements based on a skill or a talent. Burlesque is either a replication of women being judged for their bodies conforming to a conventional standard or, if it is "body positive" then anyone getting up on stage and twirling their boobs gets applauded.

I don't think everyone's experience necessarily starts from seeking validation but I was responding to SGB's point about empowerment which seemed to me to be about validation. I'm still not seeing what the power is.

[TheDoctrineOfSpike]

I'm not sure about empowerment, but there is a power to being the one in the spotlight with a receptive audience, isn't there?

I suppose what's not clear is the "respectfulness" of the audience vs that at a concert or something.

[FloraFox]

spike I'm not trying to be obtuse but what is the power? I agree that applause or appreciation feels nice but I don't get what the power is.