Burlesque dancing...?

[whatdoesittake48]

In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I have signed up to do one of these courses. But I am already torn about what this means as a feminist.

I like the idea of doing something out of my comfort zone and having fun while doing it. But I am anti-porn, see striptease as demeaning for women and do not think that women should be expected to perform for men....

Unless it is their husband/partner and they absolutely are keen themselves.

My husband is very keen for me to give this a go - but in no way did he push the idea. I searched it out. What does this say about my principles and am I over thinking this.

I hate all this empowerment bullshit - stripping for men is not about empowerment. But is it different when it is for the man you love. Isn't that just carrying on the image that men love to see women doing this kind of thing. Do the men think their wives look powerful and sexy or do they think she is doing something for me because I am the "special" one and more important.

Aaargh! I really want to do this because I think it will be a great female bonding thing - but not sure if I want to bring it home to my husband. I will feel deeply uncomfortable with the idea of putting on a show...

[ScaryFucker]

OP, asked our opinion though, Biggedy. Should we have just said "do what you want". ? She knows she can, but wanted some discussion about her mixed feelings about it.

Imagine if all of MN simply consisted of "do what you want". You are a Feminist so you can do what you want...etc. It would be a really dull place, wouldn't it.

[Grennie]

Yes scary - almost every thread on MN would only have 1 or 2 comments

[Biggedybiggedybongsoitis]

Agreed, she did ask. And she has had a myriad of responses, which is good. As a related issue, would opinions be different if the OP's partner was a woman?

[Grennie]

No. Porn is exploitative whether it is men or women watching it.

[SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat]

So burlesque performers aren't thinking about sex. Sounds like women mentally writing their shopping lists while having half hearted having sex with their partners.

I saw my first burlesque show in Lost Vagueness at Glastonbury Festival actually. So not a seedy stripclub. Mixed audience. I found it more interesting to stand at the side so I could watch the faces of the audience at the same time. The hungry and leering expressions on the faces of the men present as the stripper was about to remove her knickers are not something I want to see again in a hurry.

Similarly at our local music & arts festival. The marquee was packed out with blokes. There was a bit more space after I left following the Collapsing Can-Can. I couldn't bear to hear the sneering comments.

If I'd spent a lot of money on outfits, done a lot of practice on my routine and was trying to make a living out of this on the festival circuit, I'd post on websites saying how lovely, satirical and not just about stripping it is as well.

[Biggedybiggedybongsoitis]

Is performing only for your partner porn, though? In which case, we are all making porn.

[slug]

I'm puzzled by the argument that Burlesque is comedy/dance/acrobatics etc. If this is really the case, then why do they feel compelled to do it in a corset and stockings?

Surely you can have fully clothed entertainment and call it comedy, dancing etc without the implied titillation of calling it Burlesque?

[AutumnMadness]

slug, as I already said before, I don't know much about burlesque, so I am theorising on rather shaky grounds. But nonetheless this is an interesting discussion for me as I am myself engaged in dance that is often regarded as for sexual titillation only (belly dance).

I would not say that burlesque is just about comedy and acrobatics. I think that the naked body and the process of disrobing is actually quite central to it. But to me all depends on how you present and perceive the naked body. What does a public female naked body mean?

I am not comfortable with the argument that a public female naked body is only and always about sexual pleasure of men. For starters, women do not have to be naked to be sexually objectified. Any woman who walked past a building site knows that. How many average blokes, when made to watch Swan Lake, would just leer other the thighs of the classical ballet dancers? So how much of the problem is with the dancer's nakedness and how much of it is that many in the audience are sexist pigs?

[MurderOfBanshees]

"So burlesque performers aren't thinking about sex. Sounds like women mentally writing their shopping lists while having half hearted having sex with their partners."

Not really.

"I'm puzzled by the argument that Burlesque is comedy/dance/acrobatics etc. If this is really the case, then why do they feel compelled to do it in a corset and stockings?"

Well Burlesque, the word, means satire/parody. So it has it's roots in comedy. And not all Burlesque is done in corset and stockings. Some is obviously, and you have to remember that modern Burlesque has a lot of crossover with the vintage scene, so you are more likely to get women wearing seamed stockings/girdles etc.

[whatdoesittake48]

Apologies for not coming back to this thread sooner - it really has moved on.

Many thanks to the people who have pointed out that I am capable of making up my own mind (at 40yrs I should be able to do this...)and i certainly will.

Oh and I am neither fat nor bespectacled :) but I am a clever gothy type....(or the eighties equivalent!)

On balance, I think I would like to go along and see what all the fuss is about. I might enjoy it - I might not. I don't have to go the second week. But when it comes to showing the moves to my H, I doubt that will happen. I just feel that him wanting to see the dance moves is objectifying in some way. it makes me uncomfortable.

However if I come home and feel great about myself and keen to show him, that is something quite different. I just don't want his expectation to be that this class is about his needs. I actually doubt he feels that way - but it is something I want to make clear.

The thing is that if people know I have done a class like this am I still able to complain about stripping in general. Won't my principles be thrown back in my face?

However, worrying about what other people think is not something I usually do.

[Biggedybiggedybongsoitis]

We are all full of contradictions, whatdoes. Follow your instincts.

[laverneandshirl]

Playing devil's advocate and psychotherapist here, I'm confused about why someone self aware enough to be a feminist would do this. Deep down are you doing this to prove to yourself that you're still a sexual being at 40? Reclaiming your youthful powers of attraction before you get too old etc?

Stripping is stripping is stripping. Burlesque is about being coy and coquettish and knowing that you are doing something 'shameful' in order to get a man stoked up on the fact that you are doing the things that good girls aren't supposed to.

I'm with badminton or a nice game of squash

[Cybercat]

I can assure you that I did not come home after class and show my husband the moves I'd learned! There was one time I tried to show him my 'tasselling' skills but I was laughing too much and he was more interested in ebay! One of our local performers has a big interest in history/Jack the Ripper and her acts often involve prosthetic limbs and fake blood - more gorelesque than burlesque!

whatdoesittake if you do a class you will be in a female only environment and under no pressure to remove anything so yes you can still complain about stripping. Even if you choose to do a bit of bra removing you can double up so you reveal nothing at all.

[whatdoesittake48]

yep, it is confusing isn't it? My initial thought was that I wanted to do something which would be fun and a laugh and somewhere to meet people - these opportunities are in short supply where I am.

I know I am sexually attractive....I am one of those women who actually still feel it even at 40. My H makes it very clear he fancies me rotten. Plus I feel it from men in general (not always welcome...).

So this isn't about proving anything in that respect. But i think it might be more about stepping outside of my comfort zone. A "normal" dance class would be too easy. perhaps I simply want to push the boundaries of what I find acceptable and explore how it makes me feel.

Chances are I will have a giggle along with a bunch of other women who also feel totally weirded out by it. And that is OK too.

I don't really like badminton :)

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

"The thing is that if people know I have done a class like this am I still able to complain about stripping in general. Won't my principles be thrown back in my face?"

Yes they will. And you would be a hypocrite to complain about stripping in general.

Who are you to say that taking off your clothes is unacceptable if you're wearing perspex heels and have backcombed your hair, but feminist fun if you're removing vintage lace.

Sorry, but it just seems like class hate to me. Be consistent.

[SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat]

Perhaps Laurie Penny, burlesque-performer-turned-screaming-feminist can help us:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/may/15/burlesque-feminism-proud-galleries

If there's not a lot doing round your way and you need some form of diversion, perhaps actually doing a class would be interesting so you can see what it's like and how it makes you feel. Then, like Laurie Penny, you'll be able to give people your take on it with the Voice of Experience.

[slug]

What's a "screaming" feminist? Is it a woman who refuses to sit nicely and play with her gloves when being told how to behave?

[SoWhatSoWhatSoWhat]

.. and liven up the next issue of your local Parish Magazine with an article on "My Burlesque Hell" (or whatever)!

[curlew]

A "screaming feminist"on moment is the same as a "radical feminist"on Mumsnet. What would, anywhere else, be called a "feminist".

[curlew]

Sorry, moment should read Mumsnet.

[TheHeadlessLadyofCannock]

Murder, I'm finding your comments and insight very interesting. Could you recommend any good burlesque nights, in London if possible? Or any online clips I could watch?

I'm very torn on this issue and genuinely don't know what I think about it, largely I think because I don't know much about it beyond being aware of Dita Von Teese.

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

Sorry Buffy, I've been unclear. I don't think there's anything wrong with criticising stripping or the sex industry, whether or not you have personal experience of it.

I just don't see how the OP could take up burlesque as a hobby and not expected to be called out for hypocrisy if she also wants to continue to "complain about stripping in general"? If she acts against her principles, then why be surprised if those same principles are "thrown back" in her face?

[SolidGoldBrass]

There isn't actually anything wrong with wanting to display yourself sexually. And, for all the sneering, some women do actually find doing something like this enjoyable and, yes, a bit empowering. If you have grown up surrounded by superstitious misogyny and taught that the female body is shameful and disgusting, for instance, baring yours to an audience and having it appreciated can make you feel good. If you have been told you are undesirable, or (for instance) you have had radical surgery or an injury or something and you have a go at burlesque in a supportive environment, it can make you feel happy and comfortable in your own skin. While this isn't true for everyone on every occasion, it's important to remember that you don't have to cover yourself up all the time to be a Proper Feminist.