Sex: My British Job. Channel 4

[YouMakeMeWannaLaLa]

Anybody see this? It was just horrific. I really, really hope it reached the right audience: punters and their defenders. I doubt it, but I hope so

Buffy the science is a mascaraed though, isn't it? If he were truly scientific in his approach there would be more power but he shoots himself in the foot every time. There is the wholesale acceptance of the methodologies of any survey whose outcome he likes and the rejection of any survey whose outcome he doesn't like. He brushes aside the problems of representation when it suits. Any gaps in the information are conveniently filled by typical pimp lobby myths - the women are enjoy the sex or this latest: "often to save for a particular project or finance their education or because it provides flexible working which can be fitted around child-care" - complete made up but fits with the PhD student myth. Pathetic.

Oh I agree that he accepts the gendered nature of prostitution.

I'm asking him to address it.

And I'm asking him to address it because he keeps banging on about choice.

Women do not choose to be born women. And they do not choose their status in the binary sex hierarchy. Human females do not choose to belong to the sex class.

Wino's position disregards the above, it is a position with a starting point of an assumption that women's second class status in the binary sex hierarchy is rightful .

All his studies and stats do the same. They accept the gendered nature of prostitution. It is a hugely misogynistic starting point to fail to acknowledge that the institution of prostitution is hugely sexist.

Nowhere else (other than porn which is just filmed prostitution) can one find such overt sexism and it is ignored by those who justify prostitution. Brushed off as of no consequence, it doesn't even register. Which is extraordinary when you think about it.

Before we get into reams of studies about how many prostituted people are happy with their lot or not, we need to address the fact that not only are the vast majority of those people girls and women, but also that society doesn't see a problem with that or indeed give a shit about it. (With the exception of countries which apply the Swedish abolitionist model to prostitution).

The single most important deciding factor in a person's likelihood of ending up in prostitution (that of being born female) is not a choice, it is not something a person chooses. And the choicey choice brigade totally ignore this, which seems rather remiss of them as it invalidates their argument and shows it to be hollow and founded on nothing. Choice bullshit is intellectually dishonest smoke and mirrors.

hear hear

And supporting prostitution because it can pay for prostitutes' education only displays how poor education funding, not how great selling your holes to strangers is. And how do males ever pay for their education.

Similarly when wino says it's a great job to fit around childcare...aren't women lucky?

I'm so sick of this pro shit. Sick of it.

Arf at Buffy's dance

And yes, the idea that prostitution is a really practical choice for women because they can fit it in around their childcare responsibilities is fucking grim. On so many levels.

I'm reading this at the moment who might interest some of you.

www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/demand_sex_trafficking.pdf

It is a research paper by Donna Hughes, who is fab. www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/pubtrfrep.htm

www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/demand_for_victims.pdf

The above paper of hers is very good too and highlights how prostitution is about money. About pimps and traffickers making lots of money through the sexual abuse and exploitation of girls and women.

Once again Flora (post23 Oct 16:50:30) you are wrong . You accuse me of presenting “complete made up” stuff about some women using prostitution to save for a particular project or because it provides flexible working.

Here is just one example out of many I could cite that show you don't know what you are talking about; the 2009 report “Working in Victorian Brothels” (that is in the state of Victoria Australia where prostitution is legalized) here written by Sharon Pickering (Prof of Criminology Monash University credentials here, JaneMaree Maher (Prof Monash University in School of Political and social enquiry credentials here and Alison Gerard (now senior Lecturer in Justice studies at Charles Sturt University credentials here. None of them can be remotely described as part of the pimp/punter lobby.

The report contains many verbatim interviews with prostitutes working in both legal and unlicensed brothels. Look at section 3 beginning p 7 on worker experiences, and especially sections 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 -but I would recommend you read the entire report.

So (p 12) This income enables many workers not only to be financially independent, but also to work towards long-term goals such as saving for a small business, investing in property, travel, or paying for tertiary or technical studies. There follow a number of interviews supporting this point

(p13) Parents and students who have other non-negotiable commitments are likely to continue to find sex work an attractive option. Survey data from the Australian workforce indicates that flexibility is unevenly available and is a significant barrier to the employmentof mothers (OECD 2002). This is intensified when mothers are the sole carers of their children. In this employment context, sex work offers significant, clear benefits. This flexibility enables workers to balance their work in the industry with other commitments such as family responsibilities, education and employment in other industries.

There follow a number of verbatum quotes from sexworkers illustrating those points.

These authors published a paper in the academic literature which is more wide-ranging ( Maher JM et al 2012 Privileging work not sex: flexibility and employment in the sexual services industry Sociological Review 60, 654–675 (2012 here which discusses inter alia whether prostitution is sexwork and so on.

So Flora-is that "completely made up"-perhaps you will withdraw the accusation? Somehow I don't think you will

It's like Beach's post never even happened, isn't it wino. Just keep on hammering your point, and ignore everyone else's.

wino You. Don't. Fucking. Get. It.

wino knows so little about academia he thinks all academics are perfect neutral observers without political motivations or value assumptions.

You will carry on in your dream world wino, patching together bits and pieces of surveys and papers to create the world as you wish it to be.

I have asked him to address the gendered nature of prostitution several times on this thread. He just ignores me every time so I shall draw my own conclusions on that one.

Funnily enough, earlier today when I was reading the Donna Hughes document she talks about the fantasies that have been observed by councillors working with punters and she describes how punters are heavily invested in fantasizing that prostituted women choose to have sex with them and are all making pots of cash and happily investing in businesses and so on. (Apart from the sadistic bastards who get off on knowing the women hate it and are in distress.)

The myth of the happy hooker is very important to many of them because it spoils an entitled fuck if you know she hates it and is doing it because she has kids to feed/a habit/a pimp/nowhere to live.

I am actually looking at one of wino's documents describing what excellent opportunities sex work provides for enterprising women who wish to maximise their agency, earning potential and exercise of choice through providing personal services of an intimate nature to a variety of clients within the context of locations which provide a marketing platform and the possibility of widening the customer base by working in a flexible team with peer support and training.

And I quote:

Danielle

Danielle began working in the industry at age 21. At the time she was homeless and living in her sister's living room with her young son. As she says "no money, no qualifications, no choice".

Danielle cites one of the advantages of the job is the freedom of being able to go for a smoke when she wants.

One of the women explains how she has been shown to look for signs of sexually transmitted disease in men and another woman talks about how all her extended family back in China depend on her earnings (she also said the main advantage of the job is that she doesn't need to speak English and that if she did speak good English she would do something else to earn money with which to support her family).

So it's all good in choicey choice land for those lucky gals. Makes you wonder why men aren't queuing up for a chance to seize similar opportunities for themselves. It seems really really unfair that such an area of riches and flexibility is so heavily female dominated. Smacks of sexism if you ask me. You'd have thought that the pro lobbies and MRAs would campaign heavily in this area for men to get a slice of the pie (I mean other than the slice they get as pimps and traffickers!).

I've just come in from a night with my fellow exploited and the one statement that really caughty my eye was Flora's - sorry dear, but you really don't get it

Don't know who you are minnehaha but you haven't distinguished yourself with quality posts so far so I'll file that comment in my "Don't Give A Fuck" folder.

Minnehaha I was wondering something the other day and now you are here I can ask you. Do you mind men like wino using your testimony to generalize about prostitution all over the world?

I know it would piss me off.

Your experience (of 20 years if I remember correctly) has been very positive both for yourself and for all/most? of the other people you know in prostitution.

I'm glad for you that your experience has been so good, but as I said upthread, I think you have been lucky. I also think you must be remarkably resilient. Now whilst that is good for you and for the people you know who have a similar profile to you, surely you can see that your experience is not representative of prostitution all over the world. It would be rather a stretch for anyone to argue that your positive experience has much in common with a 12 year old girl in India or a trafficked Ukrainian women in Amsterdam or indeed any of the hundreds of people I have met who nearly all have pimps (in one form or another, often a boyfriend or partner) have been in extreme poverty and many of whom have substance abuse issues.

That resilient and lucky women like you exist, does not make these people disappear (or at least it shouldn't ). I think it is inhumane and dishonest in the extreme for people to pretend that it does.

Women for whom prostitution is a choice, freely and easily made, who entered the life as adults, have other opportunities available to them and who have no form of coercion whatsoever exercising of them, and for whom all punters behave well towards, are rare, vanishingly rare. It is bizarre to try to use these hens teeth like situations in order to generalize about a global institution which hurts so many girls and women and which is manifestly the most sexist institution that exists within a hugely sexist society. (Some would argue that it is on a par with marriage, which could be an interesting idea to explore in a thread if anyone is up for it...)

Beach
I am not generalising to all over the world or using minne's experience to do so. I am really talking about affluent westernised ( that includes Australia and nz) about which I know a bit. I don't know much about India or Cambodia and thailand.

What I know about the affluent countries is that prostitution is very varied , from pretty grim on the streets ( high incidence of drug addiction seems the norm) but indoors for many people they find the work no more demeaning or problematical than many other types of work. And I have frequently seen comments from those working indoors that they are fed up with feminists telling them how they are victims and how their lives are. And while you might acknowledge there are some who are ok with it you claim these are a tiny minority. Well how do you know? Because the biggest and most representative samples to date show that infact a large proportion and sometimes the majority are ok with it- you might not like it but that's a fact:

It's not a fact. It's your interpretation of various surveys and your assessment of the degree to which they are representative which largely results from you taking on the parts that support your viewpoint and ignoring those that don't.