Sex: My British Job. Channel 4

[YouMakeMeWannaLaLa]

Anybody see this? It was just horrific. I really, really hope it reached the right audience: punters and their defenders. I doubt it, but I hope so

To put it more succinctly - it's YOUR attitudes that enable such exploitation. Have a think ladies............

How exactly does patting men on the head for paying for sex make them less likely to abuse women?

In the decrim paradise of NZ, 50% of street prostitutes have been raped at work, as have at least 10% of indoor workers. Does that sounds good to you.

Finally as someone who defend s P net because it's apparently so good for your business, I don't think you can play the dripping with concern card either.

I'm sure you'll be running back to your blog soon to call us all ugly and jealous and other such superb enlightened and feminist terms.

No it fucking isn't Minnehaha that's really annoying that you say that.

MY attitudes harm no one, ffs. Me, sitting at home with the remote and a cuppa is putting people at risk? And not the creepy fuckers out and about, physically in the brothels?

Have a think yourself, lady. Nonsense.

As I've recently retired from the business, I have no income to protect; I'm just being a realist whist you lot are stuffing your own heads up the arse of feminist propaganda

FGS say something that makes sense....meaningless self serving drivel

Ah realism, aka defending the status quo.

Once upon a time domestic violence, no financial power, widespread sexual harassment and worse - all of these were an accepted part of the status quo for women.

Thankfully for all of us, feminists, didn't consider it "realism" to not try and eliminate any of those things and while we still face problems, huge strides forward have been made.

So why should prostitution be any different?

Most documentaries on prostitution show only heterosexual male clients, but gay women also pay women for sex, and gay men pay male prostitutes for sex, without any women being involved in any way. Even some heterosexual women pay male escorts for sex, despite the fact that women can easily get sex without being attractive or having to exert any serious effort. It’s a much more varied phenomenon than we are led to believe.

It's mostly men paying women though - of course all kinds of people do it, what figures there are and what anecdotes we have show it's overwhelmingly men doing the paying, to women and to a lesser extent young men.

I find it hard to believe that any documentary maker or anyone of that ilk with disregard the sensationalist titillation of showing gay women looking for paid sex.

I have never heard of a gay woman visiting a brothel.
I am happy to admit I don't know every gay woman in the world, though.

I think a few were shown on previous documentaries on brothels in Australia and America. It was a few years ago. I recall the prostitutes saying that they get women clients.

One of the heterosexual women paying a man for sex on that Channel 4 documentary on 30+ virgins was a 40-year-old female Christian virgin who wanted her first time to be with somebody who knew what he was doing.

That's what I mean - where they exist it is concentrated on, for the wow factor, iykwim.

Frodomum - "Women do it too" is a massive derail. Statistically, punters are overwhelmingly male.

Mostly male, not necessarily ‘overwhelmingly’. Would it matter if it were 49%/51%?

How can this possibly be a ‘derail’? Are you saying that female clients of prostitutes ‘get a pass’ because of their gender? That would be simple reverse sexism. On the last-but-one Channel 4 programme on prostitution, a disabled male client was described by a hardline feminist academic as ‘still engaging in abusive behaviour’ while losing his virginity in a brothel and that disability was not an excuse. Disabled and female clients paying for sex may both be in a minority, but if the principle is valid it must hold for any client, male or female.

Not everything which does not fit your agenda has to be a ‘derail’. The documentary unveiled a fair number of unsavoury issues.

Frodosmum, the assumption that women can get sex without putting forth much effort is irrelevant, as is the assumption that the sexual experience is what is being paid for. Part of the experience of paying a prostitute for sex is the little glow the buyer gets from knowing that money can buy something most people wouldn't freely give the average punter just for the asking, right after walking in off the street. It's the instant gratification regardless of the real desire or lack thereof of the victim that is being bought, the sense of having the power to do that to another person just by dint of having whatever it costs in your wallet, when you feel like your ego trip.

No matter what the circumstances, Frodosmum, nobody has an absolute right to a sex life or a sexual experience.

Or an ego trip.

Not directly related to the OP but I was flicking through our local paper yesterday and came across an advert for an "escort" service, they apparently specialise in visiting truckers in their lorries, just how fucking desperate do you have to be as a woman that you would put yourself at such risk by going to a lorry parked up in a layby somewhere?

It really shocked me and when I read it out to DH he couldn't believe it was legal to advertise such a "service" .

Sorry, I haven't been back to this thread.

TBH, I deliberately avoided it because I just knew there would be posters come to justify prostitution and I couldn't stand to read that soo soon after seeing such a heartbreaking documentary.

I agree that the parts with Nick Broomfield in were distasteful; he got to self-publicise from a safe distance and be super-sympathetic to the women whilst facilitating her to get more and more involved with god-knows-what lasting damage. And him acting as her punter was just unnecessary.

But it was still a powerful film and I don't fucking care if 90% of prostitution isn't like this (i.e. it's all with healthy, happy, enthusiastic women and considerate, kind, respectful punters )...it is crystal clear that some prostitution situations are as grim/bleak/coerced/forced as evidenced in this documentary and punters are not in a position to know whether they are buying from a 'happy-hooker' or unhappy/trafficked/forced woman.

zero-tolerance on buying sex is the only way to try to protect these women.

MInnie, PI, et al. please actually watch the programme (4OD) and post your thoughts.

I used to have a friend bela that lived opposite a lorry park and we would watch women come to the park and go from cab to cab. We were only around 12, but we knew what was going on. Think it's quite a common thing Some of them must be family men.

And frodosmum So what if women buy sex too? I don't care who buys it...it's wrong. I care about the woman (and the men) selling.

And the few (I do believe it is few ) women (and men) who actually choose to sell sex willingly and enjoy their job and are immune to later physical/mental repercussions...I don't mind one jot restricting your freedom to prostitute because your actions have negative repercussions on society. Making selling your body (FYI allowing groping/penetration/control of your body is not the same as selling your time/effort at say, a cleaning job...it's just not) a viable option encourages exploitation of the vulnerable and entitlement by men (and frodos lesbians)to consume and objectify women (and men).

It's all round BAD.

FFS just have a wank. (and for those who say they just want human contact/GFE, do you really think touchng/cuddling/kissing/penetrating a possibly scared/ scarred/ resentful/ desperate/ forced person is the answer?...that isn't 'human contact' that is abuse).

No matter what the circumstances, Frodosmum, nobody has an absolute right to a sex life or a sexual experience.

I am aware that this follows logically from the fact that a sexual experience, like getting a job, requires the consent of a second party. However, the pleasure obviously taken in this statement smacks of dour, sunless, Scandinavian Presbyterianism. This is why male journalists of a certain age think that feminism is only an anti-sex movement.

People also have the right not to encounter unnecessary interference in their sex lives. This is usually the ‘res’ in sexually contentious matters.

It's the only argument that gets political traction.

That means nothing in terms of substantive argument or the justice of the case.

Or an ego trip.

I don’t buy the ‘ego trip’ theory. From what I have seen and heard, particularly via the TV programmes, of the experience the punter gets, that does not really make sense.

and frodos lesbians

For reference, my understanding is that the female punters are not all gay: some are bisexual/bi-curious. Come to think about it, I suspect that this also applies to some male clients of gay male prostitutes.

Female punters are relevant because the nature of the phenomenon is not fully understood or agreed upon.

FFS just have a wank

I would hate to see you working the Samaritans suicide helpline when male clients come on: ‘Think what you have to live for: work, masturbation and death’.

Frodo - have you actually seen the documentary in question? I suggest you watch it (since it's what the thread's actually about) before tossing the insults out.

If you mean the Monday night C4 documentary, I did see it.

No matter what the circumstances, Frodosmum, nobody has an absolute right to a sex life or a sexual experience.

I hope that you realise that this applies to other things in life. For example, nobody has an absolute right to relationships or an absolute right to have children. These also require the active consent of a second party, but you don’t hear a lot about that.

Of course no one has a right to a relationship or children either, although some men think they do - mail order brides.

Amsterdam legalised prostitution. The police and Government are now saying it was a disaster. Underage children, trafficked women and violence all increased as a result. Legalisation has been tried in a number of places, it never works.

Has anyone heard of the Nordic Model? This is where you decriminalise those in prostitution, but criminalise the punters. And give help to those in prostitution to help them out of it. There is a UK group lobbying for our Government to adopt this model.